7 ms·

A database of over 500 iPhones cops have tried to unlock

122 points by colinprince 7y ago

erikig 7y ago
This is useful but it would also be helpful to have a similar database of the opposite cases too. Having a list of the times when a warrant was served and a phone unlocked with details of which OS+version, which jurisdiction and which unlock method would balance out the research.
- DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
  it would be incredibly difficult to get data on this. LE is on a budget, and they're not the NSA. In Switzerland for example LE (such as Europol) uses the lab facility from "Kudelski Security" to crack mobile devices and help with forensics. Outsourcing this to a consultancy allows them to hide things like invoices to offsec shops (FinFisher, HackingTeam et al). So this is like a poor-mans NSA where exploits get sold/brokered with these companies who then help compromise the device. Still the budget means that they're using tools which might do all sorts of things. e.g. if you sell off-sec tools you might offer a feature that allows LE to copy (read) things from the device memory/storage. The problem is that these tools not only allow you to read but actually write to the device. ("if you're a dev working for HackingTeam why on earth would you limit the feature to reading when you can provide r/w access?") The implication is that it's as easy to plant things on a device as it is to retrieve info. And if you know that the device has 99.9% child porn on it but end up not finding any why not plant something that gets you to court order you desperately need to convict the suspect? What you're asking for is transparency in a world that is very much opposed to this because they consider themselves the good guys. And the response from them is always: "how dare you?!"
  - voz_ 7y ago
    You build up a rather imposing strawman! Do you really think there are authorities planting evidence on phones?
    - DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
      if a device that is taken from me by whoever without my consent would automatically lead me to assume that it has been compromised. whether that's the case or not is beside the point. if you're only worried about surveillance-capitalism maybe it isn't in part of your threat model. for me it is. there are plenty of people in LE who overstep simply because they can. > Do you really think there are authorities planting evidence on phones? I don't think so I know it. please read the HackingTeam leaks and other OSINT sources. you'll find plenty of attempts in them making every effort to do so. You don't need a tinfoil hat, just travel to an area that is hostile to your passport.
      - voz_ 7y ago
        Sure, can you provide some links?
        aspenmayer 7y ago
        https://theintercept.com/2015/07/07/leaked-documents-confirm-hacking-team-sells-spyware-repressive-countries/ https://theintercept.com/2015/07/07/leaked-documents-confirm... https://wikileaks.org/hackingteam/emails/ https://wikileaks.org/hackingteam/emails/
      - ColanR 7y ago
        > HackingTeam leaks and other OSINT sources I would love to read more about this if you can point me in the direction of those leaks and sources.
        aspenmayer 7y ago
        https://theintercept.com/2015/07/07/leaked-documents-confirm-hacking-team-sells-spyware-repressive-countries/ https://theintercept.com/2015/07/07/leaked-documents-confirm... https://wikileaks.org/hackingteam/emails/ https://wikileaks.org/hackingteam/emails/
dimator 7y ago
serious question: all of the reporting around the FBI and its intentions focuses on iPhones. There is not much reporting about android phones, though. Is this because they are generally not as airtight in design as iphones are? Is it because iPhones are more likely to be up-to-date in terms of patches and security updates, and hence android is easier to crack? Is it because Samsung, Google, etc, have been more willing to play ball, so the FBI has not had to wage a public battle? the article mentions it but not much detail: > Android devices, on the other hand, end up having large variations in the security of devices from different manufacturers, which may have their own vulnerabilities or may have difficulty distributing security and Android operating system updates to phones quickly.
- filoleg 7y ago
  >Is this because they are generally not as airtight in design as iphones are? >Is it because iPhones are more likely to be up-to-date in terms of patches and security updates, and hence android is easier to crack? I don't want to make premature judgements without factual supporting evidence, but my personal anecdotal evidence suggests that these two guesses might be the correct ones. Me and some of my friends got S8+ a few years ago, back when it was Samsung's flagship smartphone. Among other things, we were all appalled by the update cadence. We were getting security updates, not even talking about major OS updates, about 3-6 months after Pixel phones were getting theirs. I cannot even imagine the horror show that non-flagship Android device owners have to go through in terms of updates.
  - DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
    the problem with Android fragmentation is as old as Android. If you're a journalist, activist or anyone who needs critical security on a phone you're better off not having one. The options for anyone else is usually a) always use the latest iOS device or b) use a hardened Android, or c) use a dumb phone for all non-critical comms. I should repeat that: if you're worried about security consider using f2f interaction because the number of places you're likely to trip up are endless no matter what device.
    - 7y ago
ggffryuuj 7y ago
I use a long diceware password for my iPhone. It prevents police from bypassing the rate limiter and brute forcing your password quickly. There’s supposed to be a machine that allows them to do that. Unlocking my phone throughout the day is done with Touch ID. If I think I’m going to encounter the police or be away from my phone, I press the lock button five times which disables Touch ID. I’ve been doing this for two years and it works great.
- scarface74 7y ago
  While I agree with you, it’s necessary but not sufficient. Police are just as willing to use rubber hose decryption.
  - DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-hose_cryptanalysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-hose_cryptanalysis
    - ultrarunner 7y ago
      Or, for the academic version: http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/security.png http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/security.png
  - MFogleman 7y ago
    Do you have a citation that police are as _equally willing_ to beat a password out of someone as they are to use existing tool to image a phone in compliance with a lawfully obtained and executed search warrant?
    - DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
      In 2015 I was detained at Heathrow by immigration for not willing to unlock my phone. I sat there for hours being told that somebody would be free to attend to me "shortly". 6 hours later I was told that it was a routine check. I was there for 14 hours, and missed my business appointments in London running a security workshop. They returned my phone after a few hours but I was still kept there waiting for somebody to attend to no avail. I called my lawyer after several threats that this will have legal consequences for them and was initially denied that request. When I got through to my lawyer I was advised to keep still until they charge me. After they let me go I threw the phone in the next bin I could find. I wish I had the brains and guts to take it home and RE this thing because I'm sure they bugged it. But I was too terrified at the time. A close friend of mine is a cop in Ireland. I love him to bits but hate him for his bragging about how he loves to use his pepper spray after having his 5th Guinness. Another brother of mine is actually a cop. He thinks that other cops are all corrupt. And he suffers a lot due to institutional racsim in the force and lack of promotion unless you agree to be a racist. I grew up spending lot of time time riding a cop car with an old guy who really liked my gran and was with the criminal police. We walked our dogs together. I was 8 he was in his 50ies. One of the things I still remember vividly is when he exited the car to show me the power he had over people by stopping and questioning them and he also bragged about all the "dirty crooks" that he took shortcuts with to arrest them because he was the good guy and they were the bad ones. My brother dated a girl who's ex was a cop with the criminal police in Bavaria. he (the cop) abused her and raped her over several years. He also loved to brag about what he would do to her and how he would fuck up her life if she ever left him. Covering his and his friends asses over speeding or parking tickets were the least of his crimes. Seriously cops are just people. Fuck people. Fuck power. Fuck cops. If you think for 1 second that a cop has your interest in mind think again.
jaytaylor 7y ago
All this talk of iPhones, but what about Android? Is it trivial (or possible) for a nation-state to access the data from an encrypted android device?
- panpanna 7y ago
  I think the "fragmentation" in Android land is actually helping security. It's not economical to maintain hundreds of exploits for different vendors, CPU architectures and OS and patch versions. For iOS, you need 2-3 up to date exploits to cover 80% of all devices.

122 points by colinprince 7y ago

This is useful but it would also be helpful to have a similar database of the opposite cases too. Having a list of the times when a warrant was served and a phone unlocked with details of which OS+version, which jurisdiction and which unlock method would balance out the research.

DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
it would be incredibly difficult to get data on this. LE is on a budget, and they're not the NSA. In Switzerland for example LE (such as Europol) uses the lab facility from "Kudelski Security" to crack mobile devices and help with forensics. Outsourcing this to a consultancy allows them to hide things like invoices to offsec shops (FinFisher, HackingTeam et al). So this is like a poor-mans NSA where exploits get sold/brokered with these companies who then help compromise the device. Still the budget means that they're using tools which might do all sorts of things. e.g. if you sell off-sec tools you might offer a feature that allows LE to copy (read) things from the device memory/storage. The problem is that these tools not only allow you to read but actually write to the device. ("if you're a dev working for HackingTeam why on earth would you limit the feature to reading when you can provide r/w access?") The implication is that it's as easy to plant things on a device as it is to retrieve info. And if you know that the device has 99.9% child porn on it but end up not finding any why not plant something that gets you to court order you desperately need to convict the suspect? What you're asking for is transparency in a world that is very much opposed to this because they consider themselves the good guys. And the response from them is always: "how dare you?!"
- voz_ 7y ago
  You build up a rather imposing strawman! Do you really think there are authorities planting evidence on phones?
  - DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
    if a device that is taken from me by whoever without my consent would automatically lead me to assume that it has been compromised. whether that's the case or not is beside the point. if you're only worried about surveillance-capitalism maybe it isn't in part of your threat model. for me it is. there are plenty of people in LE who overstep simply because they can. > Do you really think there are authorities planting evidence on phones? I don't think so I know it. please read the HackingTeam leaks and other OSINT sources. you'll find plenty of attempts in them making every effort to do so. You don't need a tinfoil hat, just travel to an area that is hostile to your passport.
    - voz_ 7y ago
      Sure, can you provide some links?
      - aspenmayer 7y ago
        https://theintercept.com/2015/07/07/leaked-documents-confirm-hacking-team-sells-spyware-repressive-countries/ https://theintercept.com/2015/07/07/leaked-documents-confirm... https://wikileaks.org/hackingteam/emails/ https://wikileaks.org/hackingteam/emails/
    - ColanR 7y ago
      > HackingTeam leaks and other OSINT sources I would love to read more about this if you can point me in the direction of those leaks and sources.
      - aspenmayer 7y ago
        https://theintercept.com/2015/07/07/leaked-documents-confirm-hacking-team-sells-spyware-repressive-countries/ https://theintercept.com/2015/07/07/leaked-documents-confirm... https://wikileaks.org/hackingteam/emails/ https://wikileaks.org/hackingteam/emails/

dimator 7y ago

serious question: all of the reporting around the FBI and its intentions focuses on iPhones. There is not much reporting about android phones, though. Is this because they are generally not as airtight in design as iphones are? Is it because iPhones are more likely to be up-to-date in terms of patches and security updates, and hence android is easier to crack? Is it because Samsung, Google, etc, have been more willing to play ball, so the FBI has not had to wage a public battle? the article mentions it but not much detail: > Android devices, on the other hand, end up having large variations in the security of devices from different manufacturers, which may have their own vulnerabilities or may have difficulty distributing security and Android operating system updates to phones quickly.

filoleg 7y ago
>Is this because they are generally not as airtight in design as iphones are? >Is it because iPhones are more likely to be up-to-date in terms of patches and security updates, and hence android is easier to crack? I don't want to make premature judgements without factual supporting evidence, but my personal anecdotal evidence suggests that these two guesses might be the correct ones. Me and some of my friends got S8+ a few years ago, back when it was Samsung's flagship smartphone. Among other things, we were all appalled by the update cadence. We were getting security updates, not even talking about major OS updates, about 3-6 months after Pixel phones were getting theirs. I cannot even imagine the horror show that non-flagship Android device owners have to go through in terms of updates.
- DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
  the problem with Android fragmentation is as old as Android. If you're a journalist, activist or anyone who needs critical security on a phone you're better off not having one. The options for anyone else is usually a) always use the latest iOS device or b) use a hardened Android, or c) use a dumb phone for all non-critical comms. I should repeat that: if you're worried about security consider using f2f interaction because the number of places you're likely to trip up are endless no matter what device.
  - 7y ago

ggffryuuj 7y ago

I use a long diceware password for my iPhone. It prevents police from bypassing the rate limiter and brute forcing your password quickly. There’s supposed to be a machine that allows them to do that. Unlocking my phone throughout the day is done with Touch ID. If I think I’m going to encounter the police or be away from my phone, I press the lock button five times which disables Touch ID. I’ve been doing this for two years and it works great.

scarface74 7y ago
While I agree with you, it’s necessary but not sufficient. Police are just as willing to use rubber hose decryption.
- DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-hose_cryptanalysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-hose_cryptanalysis
  - ultrarunner 7y ago
    Or, for the academic version: http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/security.png http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/security.png
- MFogleman 7y ago
  Do you have a citation that police are as _equally willing_ to beat a password out of someone as they are to use existing tool to image a phone in compliance with a lawfully obtained and executed search warrant?
  - DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
    In 2015 I was detained at Heathrow by immigration for not willing to unlock my phone. I sat there for hours being told that somebody would be free to attend to me "shortly". 6 hours later I was told that it was a routine check. I was there for 14 hours, and missed my business appointments in London running a security workshop. They returned my phone after a few hours but I was still kept there waiting for somebody to attend to no avail. I called my lawyer after several threats that this will have legal consequences for them and was initially denied that request. When I got through to my lawyer I was advised to keep still until they charge me. After they let me go I threw the phone in the next bin I could find. I wish I had the brains and guts to take it home and RE this thing because I'm sure they bugged it. But I was too terrified at the time. A close friend of mine is a cop in Ireland. I love him to bits but hate him for his bragging about how he loves to use his pepper spray after having his 5th Guinness. Another brother of mine is actually a cop. He thinks that other cops are all corrupt. And he suffers a lot due to institutional racsim in the force and lack of promotion unless you agree to be a racist. I grew up spending lot of time time riding a cop car with an old guy who really liked my gran and was with the criminal police. We walked our dogs together. I was 8 he was in his 50ies. One of the things I still remember vividly is when he exited the car to show me the power he had over people by stopping and questioning them and he also bragged about all the "dirty crooks" that he took shortcuts with to arrest them because he was the good guy and they were the bad ones. My brother dated a girl who's ex was a cop with the criminal police in Bavaria. he (the cop) abused her and raped her over several years. He also loved to brag about what he would do to her and how he would fuck up her life if she ever left him. Covering his and his friends asses over speeding or parking tickets were the least of his crimes. Seriously cops are just people. Fuck people. Fuck power. Fuck cops. If you think for 1 second that a cop has your interest in mind think again.

jaytaylor 7y ago

All this talk of iPhones, but what about Android? Is it trivial (or possible) for a nation-state to access the data from an encrypted android device?

panpanna 7y ago
I think the "fragmentation" in Android land is actually helping security. It's not economical to maintain hundreds of exploits for different vendors, CPU architectures and OS and patch versions. For iOS, you need 2-3 up to date exploits to cover 80% of all devices.