3 ms·

Why does it have to be a web-browser-based platform? I've bought a ZTE Open[0] back when FFOS was made since i am in general a fan of Mozilla (despite their mi

Why does it have to be a web-browser-based platform? I've bought a ZTE Open[0] back when FFOS was made since i am in general a fan of Mozilla (despite their missteps now and then) since before Firefox was a thing. The phone was a disaster - applications were very slow, everything was sluggish and in some cases i lost calls because the UI had frozen due to swapping or whatever it was doing. Now, you might say that it was a low end device, but here is the thing. Years before that i had a Nokia 6600 [1] which has literally less than 10% of the resources ZTE Open has, yet it was able to run multiple applications without a breeze (it was the first time i ran an IRC client on a phone) and even had several 3D games (which, imagine that, used software rendering despite the phone's limited CPU power). (and of course there were PalmOS devices that were running on even weaker hardware yet they provided UIs so responsive that put even the fastest Android to shame -- but i have very limited exposure to those to judge properly) Nokia 6600 puts in perspective how awful Android is nowadays, let alone FFOS that couldn't even manage to remain literally usable with more than ten times the resources. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZTE_Open https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZTE_Open [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_6600 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_6600

hajile 7y ago
Web-based seems to make a lot of sense. Something like 90% of all apps in both the Apple and Google store are already web apps. WASM makes this idea even more appealing. webOS in 2009 isn't even a comparison for a few important reasons. * They were primarily RAM restricted at only 256mb. * The then new v8 engine was about 4x slower than the current iteration (not to mention using much more RAM). Webkit is also much, much faster today * They used QtWebkit -- a slow and grossly outdated version of webkit that offered bad performance even back then. * There team seemed to have zero experience in actually using and optimizing a Linux OS. A single-core 1GHz A5 chip was a crazy idea. The ZTE Open C came out 6 months later *at the same price8 and had a better screen (480x800 instead of 320x480), twice the RAM (512mb instead of 256mb), and probably close to 4x the CPU power (2x A7@1.2GHz instead of 1x A5@1GHz -- for reference, AMD runs an A5 as their security coprocessor on their x86 chips). The ZTE Open was simply a mistake. It would have been a mistake no matter the OS or native vs web apps.
- badsectoracula 7y ago
  ZTE Open ran Firefox OS, not webOS. Though my point was that a much older an MUCH weaker ARM-based phone that didn't try to pretend the web is a platform but instead used native code managed to both outperform and be a much more usable device.
hardwaresofton 7y ago
I think it should be a web-browser based platform for a few reasons: - ease of development - leveraging gains in the platform development At this point, the web is already the biggest app store the world has ever seen. FFOS succeeded in one of the most difficult areas of building a new platform -- getting companies to write progressive web apps that ran on the phone. I even spent time writing little utilities, a tinder clone, and an instagram clone for the platform. There are at least 3 big companies with huge dedicated teams to making that platform better and faster. Slowness can definitely be an issue but that's a lot more solvable than a dearth of applications or a lack of open interest in improving the platform. Optimization is a long-tail problem, and it's clear by android's dominance and the progressive slowing of apple software every year that you just have to be good enough, but hardware goes a long way to help. Even more than this the biggest problem was the market FFOS was aimed for didn't give FFOS time to go down the optimization path. You can mask inefficient software with beefy hardware, and I actually had two firefox phones that worked wonderfully -- the Flame[0] and the Fx0[1]. Those two phones only scratched the surface of how powerful the hardware could be, and I didn't have any of the problems you mention. I still have 2 (!) FX0s in my closet somewhere. [0]: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox_OS/Flame https://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox_OS/Flame [1]: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Archive/B2G_OS/Phone_guide/Fx0 https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Archive/B2G_OS/Phon...
- badsectoracula 7y ago
  I don't know about you, but i always see my ZTE Open as hardware that was horribly abused. I do not see it as weak or anything, the hardware was more than capable since - as i mentioned - much weaker hardware could do much more. It is the software that was garbage.
  - hardwaresofton 7y ago
    And my point is that the ZTE open is nothing compared to the hardware modern (even mid-range) phones are shipping. All software is shit (to varying degrees) and other platforms mask their inefficiency with beefy hardware, and continuous fucking updates that almost don't run on older phones. If an analysis of FFOS being bad depends on (in my opinion) running good-enough software on terribly slow hardware, the wrong question is being answered.

hajile 7y ago

Web-based seems to make a lot of sense. Something like 90% of all apps in both the Apple and Google store are already web apps. WASM makes this idea even more appealing. webOS in 2009 isn't even a comparison for a few important reasons. * They were primarily RAM restricted at only 256mb. * The then new v8 engine was about 4x slower than the current iteration (not to mention using much more RAM). Webkit is also much, much faster today * They used QtWebkit -- a slow and grossly outdated version of webkit that offered bad performance even back then. * There team seemed to have zero experience in actually using and optimizing a Linux OS. A single-core 1GHz A5 chip was a crazy idea. The ZTE Open C came out 6 months later *at the same price8 and had a better screen (480x800 instead of 320x480), twice the RAM (512mb instead of 256mb), and probably close to 4x the CPU power (2x A7@1.2GHz instead of 1x A5@1GHz -- for reference, AMD runs an A5 as their security coprocessor on their x86 chips). The ZTE Open was simply a mistake. It would have been a mistake no matter the OS or native vs web apps.

badsectoracula 7y ago
ZTE Open ran Firefox OS, not webOS. Though my point was that a much older an MUCH weaker ARM-based phone that didn't try to pretend the web is a platform but instead used native code managed to both outperform and be a much more usable device.

hardwaresofton 7y ago

I think it should be a web-browser based platform for a few reasons: - ease of development - leveraging gains in the platform development At this point, the web is already the biggest app store the world has ever seen. FFOS succeeded in one of the most difficult areas of building a new platform -- getting companies to write progressive web apps that ran on the phone. I even spent time writing little utilities, a tinder clone, and an instagram clone for the platform. There are at least 3 big companies with huge dedicated teams to making that platform better and faster. Slowness can definitely be an issue but that's a lot more solvable than a dearth of applications or a lack of open interest in improving the platform. Optimization is a long-tail problem, and it's clear by android's dominance and the progressive slowing of apple software every year that you just have to be good enough, but hardware goes a long way to help. Even more than this the biggest problem was the market FFOS was aimed for didn't give FFOS time to go down the optimization path. You can mask inefficient software with beefy hardware, and I actually had two firefox phones that worked wonderfully -- the Flame[0] and the Fx0[1]. Those two phones only scratched the surface of how powerful the hardware could be, and I didn't have any of the problems you mention. I still have 2 (!) FX0s in my closet somewhere. [0]: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox_OS/Flame https://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox_OS/Flame [1]: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Archive/B2G_OS/Phone_guide/Fx0 https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Archive/B2G_OS/Phon...

badsectoracula 7y ago
I don't know about you, but i always see my ZTE Open as hardware that was horribly abused. I do not see it as weak or anything, the hardware was more than capable since - as i mentioned - much weaker hardware could do much more. It is the software that was garbage.
- hardwaresofton 7y ago
  And my point is that the ZTE open is nothing compared to the hardware modern (even mid-range) phones are shipping. All software is shit (to varying degrees) and other platforms mask their inefficiency with beefy hardware, and continuous fucking updates that almost don't run on older phones. If an analysis of FFOS being bad depends on (in my opinion) running good-enough software on terribly slow hardware, the wrong question is being answered.