10 ms·

KaiOS Technologies and Mozilla partner to enhance Gecko engine for KaiOS

44 points by nachtigall 7y ago

hardwaresofton 7y ago
Please, KaiOS -- make a high end phone and hit the market that Mozilla never did with FFOS -- wealthy developers who want a platform completely unburdened with apple or google. I'm not sure what's actually interesting about this partnership, it seems obvious, but one thing I think is a huge problem is that they're mentioning Gecko so much -- they should be trying to move to Servo as fast as possible. There is already a project called servonk[0] that shows this might be very possible. [0]: https://github.com/fabricedesre/servonk https://github.com/fabricedesre/servonk
- timw4mail 7y ago
  Servo is essentially Mozilla's Rust browser test ground, and my understanding is that it is not meant to stand on its own as a browser engine.
  - hardwaresofton 7y ago
    I saw it more that servo is the codebase they want firefox to be, but changing out the engine in a humongous codebase like FF is extremely difficult so they're taking it a step at a time. They merge bits and pieces in from time to time[0] and I expect that to continue until firefox is servo in as many places as possible. Looks like servo might only be a breeding ground for ideas after all. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servo_(software)#Relationship_to_Firefox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servo_(software)#Relationship_...
- mfcl 7y ago
  Last time I heard about servo I read that it was a proof of concept and that the good ideas would be ported to Gecko. I could be wrong. I'm still quite confused about what servo is and will be.
- Yizahi 7y ago
  Companies can't survive on high-end products only, unless there is a monopoly or external cash. (I do want new platform of course, like everyone else)
  - hardwaresofton 7y ago
    I'm not sure this is true, especially in the era of free-flowing VC cash and low interest loans. Maybe KaiOS/Mozilla's (now defunct) mobile department in particular can't, but companies can definitely survive on high end products only.
- badsectoracula 7y ago
  Why does it have to be a web-browser-based platform? I've bought a ZTE Open[0] back when FFOS was made since i am in general a fan of Mozilla (despite their missteps now and then) since before Firefox was a thing. The phone was a disaster - applications were very slow, everything was sluggish and in some cases i lost calls because the UI had frozen due to swapping or whatever it was doing. Now, you might say that it was a low end device, but here is the thing. Years before that i had a Nokia 6600 [1] which has literally less than 10% of the resources ZTE Open has, yet it was able to run multiple applications without a breeze (it was the first time i ran an IRC client on a phone) and even had several 3D games (which, imagine that, used software rendering despite the phone's limited CPU power). (and of course there were PalmOS devices that were running on even weaker hardware yet they provided UIs so responsive that put even the fastest Android to shame -- but i have very limited exposure to those to judge properly) Nokia 6600 puts in perspective how awful Android is nowadays, let alone FFOS that couldn't even manage to remain literally usable with more than ten times the resources. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZTE_Open https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZTE_Open [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_6600 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_6600
  - hajile 7y ago
    Web-based seems to make a lot of sense. Something like 90% of all apps in both the Apple and Google store are already web apps. WASM makes this idea even more appealing. webOS in 2009 isn't even a comparison for a few important reasons. * They were primarily RAM restricted at only 256mb. * The then new v8 engine was about 4x slower than the current iteration (not to mention using much more RAM). Webkit is also much, much faster today * They used QtWebkit -- a slow and grossly outdated version of webkit that offered bad performance even back then. * There team seemed to have zero experience in actually using and optimizing a Linux OS. A single-core 1GHz A5 chip was a crazy idea. The ZTE Open C came out 6 months later *at the same price8 and had a better screen (480x800 instead of 320x480), twice the RAM (512mb instead of 256mb), and probably close to 4x the CPU power (2x A7@1.2GHz instead of 1x A5@1GHz -- for reference, AMD runs an A5 as their security coprocessor on their x86 chips). The ZTE Open was simply a mistake. It would have been a mistake no matter the OS or native vs web apps.
- Snild 7y ago
  > who want a platform completely unburdened with apple or google I don't think KaiOS will be. It seems that Google is one of the main investors in KaiOS Technologies[0][1]. [0]: https://www.kaiostech.com/google-leads-seriesa-investment-round-kaios-connect-next-billion-users/ https://www.kaiostech.com/google-leads-seriesa-investment-ro... [1]: https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/kai-technologies#section-investors https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/kai-technologies#sec...
dang 7y ago
Is there more to this story than a partnership press release? or should we wait until something substantive appears? https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20%22no%20harm%20in%20waiting%22&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
ForHackernews 7y ago
For those who don't know, KaiOS is a closed-source proprietary fork of Mozilla's abandoned FirefoxOS for mobile devices. It's become extremely popular for low-end feature phones in the developing world. https://www.androidauthority.com/kaios-phone-review-979286/ https://www.androidauthority.com/kaios-phone-review-979286/
- butz 7y ago
  Not sure about closed source part: https://github.com/kaiostech https://github.com/kaiostech
  - ryukafalz 7y ago
    Unless I’m missing something, none of KaiOS’s UI is there. I see Gecko, the kernel, some hardware enablement bits, and sample apps.
    - SirLotsaLocks 7y ago
      it's partially open source, so you don't get the stuff you mentioned.
- jsjddbbwj 7y ago
  How can it be closed source? What licence was FirefoxOS originally released as? Or you mean that they added new bits to it and kept them closed source? In that case, what's their rationale?
  - ForHackernews 7y ago
    I think FirefoxOS was under the MPL: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Public_License https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Public_License > As such, it allows re-licensing. MPL software can thus be converted into a copyleft license such as the GPL, or to a proprietary license (example:KaiOS).
betamaxthetape 7y ago
Youtuber 'TechAltar' made a video[1] on March 11 giving his perspective on this. While I wouldn't normally link to a YouTube video in this context, KaiOS Technologies specifically reached out to TechAltar to provide him with details so he could cover the story. It's likely that one of the reasons KaiOS decided to reach out was because of his July 2018 video[2] covering KaiOS, which has over a million views. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UPk3mpcDP4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UPk3mpcDP4 [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OA_g2bQgOXY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OA_g2bQgOXY
- richardboegli 7y ago
  Linked it yesterday (2020-03-11) with very little interest https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22545721 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22545721
- SirLotsaLocks 7y ago
  His videos actually got me into operating systems, from his covering of more obscure alternatives to his videos on previous attempts that failed.
butz 7y ago
Even most recent version of KaiOS still runs on ancient Linux kernel 3.10.49 (2014) with Firefox 48.0a (2016). Not only lacking in features, but in security updates too. With updated Gecko engine and proper PWA support KaiOS might have a chance to compete with other mobile operating systems. And if somehow this new engine will be released as open source, other projects, like postmarketOS, might be able to use it too.
- tmikaeld 7y ago
  That explains why I was unable to find any secure way to store keys or sensitive data in their API[0] docs. Which means user authentication apps will not come any time soon, like Authy (Authenticators), Bitwarden (Password Managers) or BankID (Swedish) (Identity Verifiers). [0] https://developer.kaiostech.com/api https://developer.kaiostech.com/api
  - SirLotsaLocks 7y ago
    Yeah, until they can get their act together on the security side this has no chance to become as widely used like androidOS/iOS. For some places this is less important than others. But as countries seem to be looking into digital-only currency this will become more and more of a problem.
- hajile 7y ago
  I could understand version 45 (somewhat) as it was ESR. FF48 came out around the same time that Mozilla dropped support. My assumption is that KaiOS hasn't really poured many resources into that part of the OS. An update to the kernel and moving to Firefox 68 ESR seems like an amazing upgrade for users. I can't imagine Mozilla putting in the resources without also open-sourcing all the things.
rahimnathwani 7y ago
It seems that if you want your app to be available on the KaiOS app store, your app must have ads, and must use KaiOS' platform for those ads: "Currently, we are prioritizing apps for QA that use KaiAds for monetization. Visit the KaiAds website to learn more. After you have integrated KaiAds, go through this checklist."
- hajile 7y ago
  They can't really sell the OS, so that makes sense for everyone as devs can offer the app for free too. I wonder if there's a way to pay to opt out of their ads though...

44 points by nachtigall 7y ago

Please, KaiOS -- make a high end phone and hit the market that Mozilla never did with FFOS -- wealthy developers who want a platform completely unburdened with apple or google. I'm not sure what's actually interesting about this partnership, it seems obvious, but one thing I think is a huge problem is that they're mentioning Gecko so much -- they should be trying to move to Servo as fast as possible. There is already a project called servonk[0] that shows this might be very possible. [0]: https://github.com/fabricedesre/servonk https://github.com/fabricedesre/servonk

timw4mail 7y ago
Servo is essentially Mozilla's Rust browser test ground, and my understanding is that it is not meant to stand on its own as a browser engine.
- hardwaresofton 7y ago
  I saw it more that servo is the codebase they want firefox to be, but changing out the engine in a humongous codebase like FF is extremely difficult so they're taking it a step at a time. They merge bits and pieces in from time to time[0] and I expect that to continue until firefox is servo in as many places as possible. Looks like servo might only be a breeding ground for ideas after all. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servo_(software)#Relationship_to_Firefox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servo_(software)#Relationship_...
mfcl 7y ago
Last time I heard about servo I read that it was a proof of concept and that the good ideas would be ported to Gecko. I could be wrong. I'm still quite confused about what servo is and will be.
Yizahi 7y ago
Companies can't survive on high-end products only, unless there is a monopoly or external cash. (I do want new platform of course, like everyone else)
- hardwaresofton 7y ago
  I'm not sure this is true, especially in the era of free-flowing VC cash and low interest loans. Maybe KaiOS/Mozilla's (now defunct) mobile department in particular can't, but companies can definitely survive on high end products only.
badsectoracula 7y ago
Why does it have to be a web-browser-based platform? I've bought a ZTE Open[0] back when FFOS was made since i am in general a fan of Mozilla (despite their missteps now and then) since before Firefox was a thing. The phone was a disaster - applications were very slow, everything was sluggish and in some cases i lost calls because the UI had frozen due to swapping or whatever it was doing. Now, you might say that it was a low end device, but here is the thing. Years before that i had a Nokia 6600 [1] which has literally less than 10% of the resources ZTE Open has, yet it was able to run multiple applications without a breeze (it was the first time i ran an IRC client on a phone) and even had several 3D games (which, imagine that, used software rendering despite the phone's limited CPU power). (and of course there were PalmOS devices that were running on even weaker hardware yet they provided UIs so responsive that put even the fastest Android to shame -- but i have very limited exposure to those to judge properly) Nokia 6600 puts in perspective how awful Android is nowadays, let alone FFOS that couldn't even manage to remain literally usable with more than ten times the resources. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZTE_Open https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZTE_Open [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_6600 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_6600
- hajile 7y ago
  Web-based seems to make a lot of sense. Something like 90% of all apps in both the Apple and Google store are already web apps. WASM makes this idea even more appealing. webOS in 2009 isn't even a comparison for a few important reasons. * They were primarily RAM restricted at only 256mb. * The then new v8 engine was about 4x slower than the current iteration (not to mention using much more RAM). Webkit is also much, much faster today * They used QtWebkit -- a slow and grossly outdated version of webkit that offered bad performance even back then. * There team seemed to have zero experience in actually using and optimizing a Linux OS. A single-core 1GHz A5 chip was a crazy idea. The ZTE Open C came out 6 months later *at the same price8 and had a better screen (480x800 instead of 320x480), twice the RAM (512mb instead of 256mb), and probably close to 4x the CPU power (2x A7@1.2GHz instead of 1x A5@1GHz -- for reference, AMD runs an A5 as their security coprocessor on their x86 chips). The ZTE Open was simply a mistake. It would have been a mistake no matter the OS or native vs web apps.
Snild 7y ago
> who want a platform completely unburdened with apple or google I don't think KaiOS will be. It seems that Google is one of the main investors in KaiOS Technologies[0][1]. [0]: https://www.kaiostech.com/google-leads-seriesa-investment-round-kaios-connect-next-billion-users/ https://www.kaiostech.com/google-leads-seriesa-investment-ro... [1]: https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/kai-technologies#section-investors https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/kai-technologies#sec...

dang 7y ago

Is there more to this story than a partnership press release? or should we wait until something substantive appears? https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20%22no%20harm%20in%20waiting%22&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...

ForHackernews 7y ago

For those who don't know, KaiOS is a closed-source proprietary fork of Mozilla's abandoned FirefoxOS for mobile devices. It's become extremely popular for low-end feature phones in the developing world. https://www.androidauthority.com/kaios-phone-review-979286/ https://www.androidauthority.com/kaios-phone-review-979286/

butz 7y ago
Not sure about closed source part: https://github.com/kaiostech https://github.com/kaiostech
- ryukafalz 7y ago
  Unless I’m missing something, none of KaiOS’s UI is there. I see Gecko, the kernel, some hardware enablement bits, and sample apps.
  - SirLotsaLocks 7y ago
    it's partially open source, so you don't get the stuff you mentioned.
jsjddbbwj 7y ago
How can it be closed source? What licence was FirefoxOS originally released as? Or you mean that they added new bits to it and kept them closed source? In that case, what's their rationale?
- ForHackernews 7y ago
  I think FirefoxOS was under the MPL: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Public_License https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Public_License > As such, it allows re-licensing. MPL software can thus be converted into a copyleft license such as the GPL, or to a proprietary license (example:KaiOS).

betamaxthetape 7y ago

Youtuber 'TechAltar' made a video[1] on March 11 giving his perspective on this. While I wouldn't normally link to a YouTube video in this context, KaiOS Technologies specifically reached out to TechAltar to provide him with details so he could cover the story. It's likely that one of the reasons KaiOS decided to reach out was because of his July 2018 video[2] covering KaiOS, which has over a million views. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UPk3mpcDP4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UPk3mpcDP4 [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OA_g2bQgOXY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OA_g2bQgOXY

richardboegli 7y ago
Linked it yesterday (2020-03-11) with very little interest https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22545721 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22545721
SirLotsaLocks 7y ago
His videos actually got me into operating systems, from his covering of more obscure alternatives to his videos on previous attempts that failed.

butz 7y ago

Even most recent version of KaiOS still runs on ancient Linux kernel 3.10.49 (2014) with Firefox 48.0a (2016). Not only lacking in features, but in security updates too. With updated Gecko engine and proper PWA support KaiOS might have a chance to compete with other mobile operating systems. And if somehow this new engine will be released as open source, other projects, like postmarketOS, might be able to use it too.

tmikaeld 7y ago
That explains why I was unable to find any secure way to store keys or sensitive data in their API[0] docs. Which means user authentication apps will not come any time soon, like Authy (Authenticators), Bitwarden (Password Managers) or BankID (Swedish) (Identity Verifiers). [0] https://developer.kaiostech.com/api https://developer.kaiostech.com/api
- SirLotsaLocks 7y ago
  Yeah, until they can get their act together on the security side this has no chance to become as widely used like androidOS/iOS. For some places this is less important than others. But as countries seem to be looking into digital-only currency this will become more and more of a problem.
hajile 7y ago
I could understand version 45 (somewhat) as it was ESR. FF48 came out around the same time that Mozilla dropped support. My assumption is that KaiOS hasn't really poured many resources into that part of the OS. An update to the kernel and moving to Firefox 68 ESR seems like an amazing upgrade for users. I can't imagine Mozilla putting in the resources without also open-sourcing all the things.

rahimnathwani 7y ago

It seems that if you want your app to be available on the KaiOS app store, your app must have ads, and must use KaiOS' platform for those ads: "Currently, we are prioritizing apps for QA that use KaiAds for monetization. Visit the KaiAds website to learn more. After you have integrated KaiAds, go through this checklist."

hajile 7y ago
They can't really sell the OS, so that makes sense for everyone as devs can offer the app for free too. I wonder if there's a way to pay to opt out of their ads though...