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"Before users can use your app you need to get them to download it first. So you will need them to: - go to the App Store/Play Store - search for your app - cli

by illuminati1911 7y ago

"Before users can use your app you need to get them to download it first. So you will need them to: - go to the App Store/Play Store - search for your app - click to install - accept permissions - wait for it to download In each of these steps you can lose 20% of your potential users." True. Then again, when users have installed the app they need to: 1) Open it by a single tap <Automatic face id authentication> 2) Enjoy With a web app: 1) Open Browser 2) Type in the URL or... 2) Open settings/options menu of the browser 3) Select favorites 4) Scroll through the list until you find your web site 5) Open the website 6) Realize you are not authenticated 7) Tap login 8) enter username 9) WTF was the password 10) Close the browser 11) Open lastpass etc <Automatic face id authentication> 12) Search for the website and open it in lastpass 13) Copy password 14) Close lastpass 15) Open browser again 16) Paste password 17) Tap login 18) Enjoy...? Not to even mention high performance 1:1 user experience vs laggy and slowly loading websites, safety of app store, privacy protection by "Sign in with Apple" etc. From developers' perspective: Mobile apps: - High performance - 100% access to local SDKs, features, hardware (not exactly 100%, but only limited by the OS) - Elegant, fast and safe languages with static typing such Swift and Kotlin Web apps: - Slow - Limited access or no access - JS Of course if you are developing software for media outlet etc. (app for reading news) then it's probably not worth the effort to build native app vs mobile first website.

mattacular 7y ago
Or just save it to your home screen ...?
shrew 7y ago
I'm not wild for PWAs but your suggested web app flow sounds like failings in the authentication setup of the PWA and of LastPass rather than the failings of PWAs in general. If a native app can remain authenticated with whatever service it communicates with a PWA should be able to as well, that's an implementation issue rather than a PWA issue, no? Similarly if LastPass doesn't integrate correctly to the point where you're having to manually look up details rather than having details auto-filled across websites and apps (iOS and Android both support this), that sounds like an issue with LastPass. With all that said, it's hard to deny that it's easier to keep a mobile app performant and flexible than it is a PWA. I'd also add to your list that native apps have familiar UIs by default, which is tricky to replicate in a PWA.
- illuminati1911 7y ago
  "If a native app can remain authenticated with whatever service it communicates with a PWA should be able to as well, that's an implementation issue rather than a PWA issue, no?" Native apps don't usually remain authenticated, but they'll allow you to store your credentials on the device keychain or secure enclave and it can be accessed with FaceID/TouchID making re-authentication completely automatic. "Similarly if LastPass doesn't integrate correctly to the point where you're having to manually look up details rather than having details auto-filled across websites and apps (iOS and Android both support this), that sounds like an issue with LastPass." We can surely blame the services, apps, browsers for not doing things correctly, but as an user I just want things to be fast, efficient and simple. Right now only native apps provide that experience. "(iOS and Android both support this)" Can you tell me how? I use Firefox, Chrome and Brave on iOS and have never seen any kind of Lastpass integration on them.
  - shrew 7y ago
    "Native apps don't usually remain authenticated" Thanks for the correction, I admit I have limited knowledge of production ready native app development! As with the UI issue, a PWA developer could still use the JS crypto APIs to roll their own secure store for credentials, or store something similar to an API key issued on successful authentication? Handling this kind of data correctly has a lot of pitfalls, which is likely why most PWAs still use standard authentication processes. There are APIs and specs [0] [1] [2] that have been floating about for at least the last couple of years which aim to solve credential and authentication management in a more formal way in the browser, but as with many of these features, they're slower moving than the native SDKs. I still don't believe that makes it impossible to achieve a similar flow in a PWA but I certainly concede it's much harder to get right (secure and convenient). "Can you tell me how?" As a disclaimer, I jumped ship to 1Password before I jumped ship to iOS, so I've never actually done this with LastPass. But this article[3] appears to offer a similar experience to what I have with 1Password: - I go to an app or website - A prompt above the keyboard offers to autofill with credentials - I tap it and authenticate with 1Password (it normally pre-filters the list by app or website I'm using) - When I make a selection it autofills everything it can In 1Password, there is also the option to keep your OTP seed stored too, in which case it will copy the OTP to your clipboard for a short time (and slightly invalidate the purpose of 2FA...). [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16801858 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16801858 [1] https://github.com/WebKit/explainers/tree/master/IsLoggedIn https://github.com/WebKit/explainers/tree/master/IsLoggedIn [2] https://w3c.github.io/webappsec-credential-management/ https://w3c.github.io/webappsec-credential-management/ [3] https://blog.lastpass.com/2018/09/get-in-app-autofill-with-lastpass-ios-12.html/ https://blog.lastpass.com/2018/09/get-in-app-autofill-with-l...
pjmlp 7y ago
Mobile apps: - High battery consumption and no way to control background services - 100% access to local user data - Fast and unsafe languages such as C and C++ (yes they also come in the SDK tooling) Web apps: - Fast with WebGL 2.0, and proper use of hardware accelerated CSS - Limited access is actually a positive - WebAssembly
- scarface74 7y ago
  iOS - you can disable background processes on a per app basis. A local app doesn’t have access to a data outside of its own sandbox unless the user explicitly gives it to them and then it’s still limited.
  - pjmlp 7y ago
    A feature available to 13.4% of mobile phone population across the world.
    - scarface74 7y ago
      The iPhone is available in almost all of the world. Whether they choose to buy one is a different story. But as far as “availability”, how many people have high end Android phones with decent GPUs for “with WebGL 2.0, and proper use of hardware accelerated CSS”? Most Android phones sold are low end with crappy hardware.
      - pjmlp 7y ago
        More than those that can afford iDevices. I target devices that customers actually have, not what they might have on local store windows.
        scarface74 7y ago
        The average selling price of an Android phone is $250. How many of those have decent GPUs or perform well enough to run web apps as well as native apps? Ironically, iPhones do better on web benchmarks than almost any Android phone.

mattacular 7y ago

Or just save it to your home screen ...?

shrew 7y ago

I'm not wild for PWAs but your suggested web app flow sounds like failings in the authentication setup of the PWA and of LastPass rather than the failings of PWAs in general. If a native app can remain authenticated with whatever service it communicates with a PWA should be able to as well, that's an implementation issue rather than a PWA issue, no? Similarly if LastPass doesn't integrate correctly to the point where you're having to manually look up details rather than having details auto-filled across websites and apps (iOS and Android both support this), that sounds like an issue with LastPass. With all that said, it's hard to deny that it's easier to keep a mobile app performant and flexible than it is a PWA. I'd also add to your list that native apps have familiar UIs by default, which is tricky to replicate in a PWA.

illuminati1911 7y ago
"If a native app can remain authenticated with whatever service it communicates with a PWA should be able to as well, that's an implementation issue rather than a PWA issue, no?" Native apps don't usually remain authenticated, but they'll allow you to store your credentials on the device keychain or secure enclave and it can be accessed with FaceID/TouchID making re-authentication completely automatic. "Similarly if LastPass doesn't integrate correctly to the point where you're having to manually look up details rather than having details auto-filled across websites and apps (iOS and Android both support this), that sounds like an issue with LastPass." We can surely blame the services, apps, browsers for not doing things correctly, but as an user I just want things to be fast, efficient and simple. Right now only native apps provide that experience. "(iOS and Android both support this)" Can you tell me how? I use Firefox, Chrome and Brave on iOS and have never seen any kind of Lastpass integration on them.
- shrew 7y ago
  "Native apps don't usually remain authenticated" Thanks for the correction, I admit I have limited knowledge of production ready native app development! As with the UI issue, a PWA developer could still use the JS crypto APIs to roll their own secure store for credentials, or store something similar to an API key issued on successful authentication? Handling this kind of data correctly has a lot of pitfalls, which is likely why most PWAs still use standard authentication processes. There are APIs and specs [0] [1] [2] that have been floating about for at least the last couple of years which aim to solve credential and authentication management in a more formal way in the browser, but as with many of these features, they're slower moving than the native SDKs. I still don't believe that makes it impossible to achieve a similar flow in a PWA but I certainly concede it's much harder to get right (secure and convenient). "Can you tell me how?" As a disclaimer, I jumped ship to 1Password before I jumped ship to iOS, so I've never actually done this with LastPass. But this article[3] appears to offer a similar experience to what I have with 1Password: - I go to an app or website - A prompt above the keyboard offers to autofill with credentials - I tap it and authenticate with 1Password (it normally pre-filters the list by app or website I'm using) - When I make a selection it autofills everything it can In 1Password, there is also the option to keep your OTP seed stored too, in which case it will copy the OTP to your clipboard for a short time (and slightly invalidate the purpose of 2FA...). [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16801858 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16801858 [1] https://github.com/WebKit/explainers/tree/master/IsLoggedIn https://github.com/WebKit/explainers/tree/master/IsLoggedIn [2] https://w3c.github.io/webappsec-credential-management/ https://w3c.github.io/webappsec-credential-management/ [3] https://blog.lastpass.com/2018/09/get-in-app-autofill-with-lastpass-ios-12.html/ https://blog.lastpass.com/2018/09/get-in-app-autofill-with-l...

pjmlp 7y ago

Mobile apps: - High battery consumption and no way to control background services - 100% access to local user data - Fast and unsafe languages such as C and C++ (yes they also come in the SDK tooling) Web apps: - Fast with WebGL 2.0, and proper use of hardware accelerated CSS - Limited access is actually a positive - WebAssembly

scarface74 7y ago
iOS - you can disable background processes on a per app basis. A local app doesn’t have access to a data outside of its own sandbox unless the user explicitly gives it to them and then it’s still limited.
- pjmlp 7y ago
  A feature available to 13.4% of mobile phone population across the world.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    The iPhone is available in almost all of the world. Whether they choose to buy one is a different story. But as far as “availability”, how many people have high end Android phones with decent GPUs for “with WebGL 2.0, and proper use of hardware accelerated CSS”? Most Android phones sold are low end with crappy hardware.
    - pjmlp 7y ago
      More than those that can afford iDevices. I target devices that customers actually have, not what they might have on local store windows.
      - scarface74 7y ago
        The average selling price of an Android phone is $250. How many of those have decent GPUs or perform well enough to run web apps as well as native apps? Ironically, iPhones do better on web benchmarks than almost any Android phone.