44 ms·

Don't you already have basic shelter and medical care though? Shelters exist and doctors can't turn you away when you're in an urgent need for medical care. I t

Don't you already have basic shelter and medical care though? Shelters exist and doctors can't turn you away when you're in an urgent need for medical care. I think what's needed is beyond basic.

mpfundstein 7y ago
Ever been to LA? Skid row?
- albroland 7y ago
  That's not a great example. There are incredible resources available in LA for medical care and housing support. The people on skid row are electing to not use them, and they cannot be compelled to use them. It's a mental health/drug issue. You can see a similar dynamic in NYC, where the city cannot turn you away from a shelter, and they've been spending hundreds of millions to put up homeless people in hotels for years. Yet still, there are thousands on the street. Not for a lack of option, but because they've specifically refused these services and outreach, and you cannot force them.
  - AstralStorm 7y ago
    That's not a mental health issue at all. If you ever visited a homeless shelter, you'd know they're only slightly better than prisons (sometimes even worse, as theft is common) and are definitely not good for transient homeless at all, while the ones with serious issues get kicked out. Shelter is not enough of help and rather terrible at fixing reasons for homelessness. In fact some of the rules in these seem designed to prevent job and house searching. If anything, the programs would have to be extended to allow most anyone to crash and not strip people of hope.
    - albroland 7y ago
      To be clear, we're talking about the people on skid row and in similar situations. I've volunteered extensively with BRC in NYC, I'm very familiar with the conditions of shelters in the US as well as the laws governing them. I'm very curious what rules you think are designed to prevent job searches: curfew? alcohol prohibition? no visitors? The ones who are refusing these services, the ones out in the streets, below the highways, sleeping on subway cars are almost all suffering from substantial mental health or addiction issues, and both the number of psychiatric beds and the ability to compel the sick into them has disappeared over time leaving them on the street. LA homeless outreach is quite extensive - not quite at the NYC level with right to shelter laws that are causing the enormous spillover into commercial hotels - but to compare the people on skid row to lower wage service workers who might find themselves unable to pay rent for two months is wildly disingenuous.
Pfhreak 7y ago
Those don't meet my definitions of basic. If shelters were sufficient we wouldn't have people sleeping rough. And basic medical care includes preventative care, medications, visits to specialists, urgent care, childbirth, etc.
- Mirioron 7y ago
  >If shelters were sufficient we wouldn't have people sleeping rough. Sure you would. Some people don't want to ask for help and some people don't know that they can ask for help. Just having shelters isn't the whole story. >And basic medical care includes preventative care, medications, visits to specialists, urgent care, childbirth, etc. All of this is available for urgent issues. Hospitals won't let you die on their doorstep, but if you have a problem that builds up long-term then you're screwed. I would say that this is pretty much what I would consider basic healthcare to be. What you're looking for is full-blown healthcare. I don't disagree with you that this is probably the way forward, but I loathe it when people understate their demands. You can't just say "we want just basic care" but what you mean by "basic care" is full-blown healthcare. That's why people will fight you every step of the way with few compromises.

Don't you already have basic shelter and medical care though? Shelters exist and doctors can't turn you away when you're in an urgent need for medical care. I think what's needed is beyond basic.

mpfundstein 7y ago

Ever been to LA? Skid row?

albroland 7y ago
That's not a great example. There are incredible resources available in LA for medical care and housing support. The people on skid row are electing to not use them, and they cannot be compelled to use them. It's a mental health/drug issue. You can see a similar dynamic in NYC, where the city cannot turn you away from a shelter, and they've been spending hundreds of millions to put up homeless people in hotels for years. Yet still, there are thousands on the street. Not for a lack of option, but because they've specifically refused these services and outreach, and you cannot force them.
- AstralStorm 7y ago
  That's not a mental health issue at all. If you ever visited a homeless shelter, you'd know they're only slightly better than prisons (sometimes even worse, as theft is common) and are definitely not good for transient homeless at all, while the ones with serious issues get kicked out. Shelter is not enough of help and rather terrible at fixing reasons for homelessness. In fact some of the rules in these seem designed to prevent job and house searching. If anything, the programs would have to be extended to allow most anyone to crash and not strip people of hope.
  - albroland 7y ago
    To be clear, we're talking about the people on skid row and in similar situations. I've volunteered extensively with BRC in NYC, I'm very familiar with the conditions of shelters in the US as well as the laws governing them. I'm very curious what rules you think are designed to prevent job searches: curfew? alcohol prohibition? no visitors? The ones who are refusing these services, the ones out in the streets, below the highways, sleeping on subway cars are almost all suffering from substantial mental health or addiction issues, and both the number of psychiatric beds and the ability to compel the sick into them has disappeared over time leaving them on the street. LA homeless outreach is quite extensive - not quite at the NYC level with right to shelter laws that are causing the enormous spillover into commercial hotels - but to compare the people on skid row to lower wage service workers who might find themselves unable to pay rent for two months is wildly disingenuous.

Pfhreak 7y ago

Those don't meet my definitions of basic. If shelters were sufficient we wouldn't have people sleeping rough. And basic medical care includes preventative care, medications, visits to specialists, urgent care, childbirth, etc.

Mirioron 7y ago
>If shelters were sufficient we wouldn't have people sleeping rough. Sure you would. Some people don't want to ask for help and some people don't know that they can ask for help. Just having shelters isn't the whole story. >And basic medical care includes preventative care, medications, visits to specialists, urgent care, childbirth, etc. All of this is available for urgent issues. Hospitals won't let you die on their doorstep, but if you have a problem that builds up long-term then you're screwed. I would say that this is pretty much what I would consider basic healthcare to be. What you're looking for is full-blown healthcare. I don't disagree with you that this is probably the way forward, but I loathe it when people understate their demands. You can't just say "we want just basic care" but what you mean by "basic care" is full-blown healthcare. That's why people will fight you every step of the way with few compromises.