4 ms·

The difference is, here we're allowed to speak up, even the CDC to some extent, counter the President's opinion. The facts are still available No one has that

by surge 7y ago

The difference is, here we're allowed to speak up, even the CDC to some extent, counter the President's opinion. The facts are still available No one has that opportunity in China when it comes to Xi Xinping's message, if they do, they're censored or get a visit to their home by the police. I see Trump to some extent trying to negate a mass panic amongst the populace by downplaying it while the real decision makers look to the CDC to make decisions about what actions to take. At least the optimistic side of me believes that's how its working. Problem is its now backfiring and people are saying its just another flu, which curtails any advice the CDC has on cancelling events, limiting contact, etc.

resters 7y ago
That perspective is remarkably charitable to Trump, who not only claimed that the virus was a "hoax", but mobilized his loyalists in the media to spread harmful ideas about the level of contagion and lethality. It is important to realize that Trump's comments about COVID-19 likely caused many people to defy their own common sense intuitions and do the opposite of what the experts have recommended. In the US, direct censorship by government is not necessary. Voices that the government doesn't approve of are quickly censored/deplatformed by private sector firms, news feed algos are updated to suppress certain kinds of information, etc. The extent to which firm authoritarian measures are necessary is determined by how compliant/obedient the citizens are. The Chinese government must be more heavy handed because there is an active culture of dissent, not because China is somehow innately more authoritarian.
- Mountain_Skies 7y ago
  The president did not call the virus a hoax. You're either being intentionally disingenuous or are poorly informed. Before you post an out of context link to a partisan blog, go find the entire statement in context and realize everyone else here is quite able to do the same. If you wish to remain in an information bubble, that's your choice but don't be surprised when others who do not pop that bubble when you attempt to spread misinformation.
  - resters 7y ago
    Trump has mastered the art of saying word salads that convey what he wants but do not syntactically say what he communicated. He is the most talented politician the US has seen in decades, and this is just one example. He says the word salad, the sound bite is picked up as outrageous, and then when the tiny subset of his supporters who care to look carefully at it examine the transcript, they can vindicate him based on technicalities of the syntax he used. But make no mistake, he intended to communicate that the virus was a hoax and he did so quite effectively, just as he intended to show support for the white nationalists in Charlottesville and intended to convey that he thinks many immigrants are rapists. While I am not a partisan for either party and despise most of the major pols, one must admit that Trump is very good at politics, and this is a great example. Once called out, his supporters defend him by dissecting the word salad and finding a well meaning, thoughtful comment where none ever existed :)
    - microcolonel 7y ago
      > Trump has mastered the art of saying word salads that convey what he wants but do not syntactically say what he communicated. "It's the President's fault that I ignored what he was saying so that I could interpret it uncharitably, and share that interpretation without a second thought." > he thinks many immigrants are rapists You got this from... What? A speech talking up the border wall, a measure that by definition only pertains to a subset of illegal aliens, not "immigrants" broadly. You are responsible for your own ludicrous interpretations of plain language. It is not anyone else's fault that you choose to believe something is meant that isn't said. When the President continues to say things like “I want people to come into our country in the largest numbers ever, but they have to come in legally”, you can't credibly interpret that as an indictment of immigrants.
      - resters 7y ago
        I didn't downvote your comment, by the way. It's a fair point. Many politicians have tried to rally support for border security by describing illegal immigration as a source of violent crime. Trump mentioned "rapists" in his remarks as a way of communicating that same narrative, albeit a bit more colorfully. The word salads are very ingenious, as they are essentially two messages in one. The message "immigrants are rapists" gets through to some of his supporters (who are happy to hear it) and the more nuanced message gets through to those who read the transcript or who parse the words more carefully. It's an added benefit that when the opposing party's media jumps all over the comment, some portion of Trump's supporters believe that they intentionally ignored the intent of Trump's statement and are unfairly characterizing him as racist. Yet to many of his supporters, the racism is a welcome change and a sign of honesty and courage. Whether you personally agree with Trump or not, you must acknowledge the mechanism I'm describing. It's brilliant, and it is why Trump has been so successful. He's able to break through the wall of fake-sounding language that holds back much political speech and reap the benefits of a more raw and hostile form of speech, while still being viewed as having expressed a reasonable view by his more sophisticated supporters. If you don't view them as deliberate word salad bombs, then they are gaffes, but there have now been way too many of them for it to be accidental. Trump understands how to speak both in text and subtext for maximum emotional impact. So while I personally find Trump to be one of the most reprehensible characters ever to hold high office in the US (and also a big embarrassment), I do give him credit for being skilled at political rhetoric.
rconti 7y ago
It's a very charitable interpretation. Unfortunately, the administration is actively working to prevent the CDC from spreading useful information.
- microcolonel 7y ago
  If that's what they're trying, it's failing; and I'm not sure that's an accurate idea of what they're trying either.
  - rconti 7y ago
    It IS failing, due to public interest. Reuters reported today that Coronavirus briefings have been classified to limit information sharing [1] They've blamed it on Mexicans running over the southern border [2] They've called it "the flu" They've kneecapped professionals at every turn (stopped the CDC from reporting how many people have been tested, tried to muzzle Nancy Messonnier for saying a Coronavirus outbreak was inevitable in this country, [3] They're still asking for cuts to the CDC [4] The president called the Governor of Washington "a snake" to cut down his credibility, cut off his head of HHS to lie to the public and say tests were available, he's most concerned that the US count of infections will go up if they let the cruise ship passengers on US soil, preferring, presumably, to let them die and infect each other [5] They overrode CDC's plan to recommend that elderly people and fragile people not get on airplanes [6] Generally, it is beyond clear that they are most concerned with not looking in control, and giving out mixed messages that will lead to death. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-secrecy-exclusive/exclusive-white-house-told-federal-health-agency-to-classify-coronavirus-deliberations-sources-idUSKBN20Y2LM https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-secrec... [2] https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/10/cdc-director-border-wall-coronavirus-125007 https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/10/cdc-director-border... [3] https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/07/trump-coronavirus-management-style-123465 https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/07/trump-coronavirus-m... [4] https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/trump-administration-isn-t-backing-proposed-cuts-cdc-budget-n1155411 https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/trump-administratio... [5] https://www.wired.com/story/trumps-coronavirus-press-event-was-even-worse-than-it-looked/ https://www.wired.com/story/trumps-coronavirus-press-event-w... [6] https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/486475-trump-administration-overrode-health-officials-recommendation-that-elderly https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/486475-trump-administr...

by surge 7y ago

resters 7y ago

That perspective is remarkably charitable to Trump, who not only claimed that the virus was a "hoax", but mobilized his loyalists in the media to spread harmful ideas about the level of contagion and lethality. It is important to realize that Trump's comments about COVID-19 likely caused many people to defy their own common sense intuitions and do the opposite of what the experts have recommended. In the US, direct censorship by government is not necessary. Voices that the government doesn't approve of are quickly censored/deplatformed by private sector firms, news feed algos are updated to suppress certain kinds of information, etc. The extent to which firm authoritarian measures are necessary is determined by how compliant/obedient the citizens are. The Chinese government must be more heavy handed because there is an active culture of dissent, not because China is somehow innately more authoritarian.

Mountain_Skies 7y ago
The president did not call the virus a hoax. You're either being intentionally disingenuous or are poorly informed. Before you post an out of context link to a partisan blog, go find the entire statement in context and realize everyone else here is quite able to do the same. If you wish to remain in an information bubble, that's your choice but don't be surprised when others who do not pop that bubble when you attempt to spread misinformation.
- resters 7y ago
  Trump has mastered the art of saying word salads that convey what he wants but do not syntactically say what he communicated. He is the most talented politician the US has seen in decades, and this is just one example. He says the word salad, the sound bite is picked up as outrageous, and then when the tiny subset of his supporters who care to look carefully at it examine the transcript, they can vindicate him based on technicalities of the syntax he used. But make no mistake, he intended to communicate that the virus was a hoax and he did so quite effectively, just as he intended to show support for the white nationalists in Charlottesville and intended to convey that he thinks many immigrants are rapists. While I am not a partisan for either party and despise most of the major pols, one must admit that Trump is very good at politics, and this is a great example. Once called out, his supporters defend him by dissecting the word salad and finding a well meaning, thoughtful comment where none ever existed :)
  - microcolonel 7y ago
    > Trump has mastered the art of saying word salads that convey what he wants but do not syntactically say what he communicated. "It's the President's fault that I ignored what he was saying so that I could interpret it uncharitably, and share that interpretation without a second thought." > he thinks many immigrants are rapists You got this from... What? A speech talking up the border wall, a measure that by definition only pertains to a subset of illegal aliens, not "immigrants" broadly. You are responsible for your own ludicrous interpretations of plain language. It is not anyone else's fault that you choose to believe something is meant that isn't said. When the President continues to say things like “I want people to come into our country in the largest numbers ever, but they have to come in legally”, you can't credibly interpret that as an indictment of immigrants.
    - resters 7y ago
      I didn't downvote your comment, by the way. It's a fair point. Many politicians have tried to rally support for border security by describing illegal immigration as a source of violent crime. Trump mentioned "rapists" in his remarks as a way of communicating that same narrative, albeit a bit more colorfully. The word salads are very ingenious, as they are essentially two messages in one. The message "immigrants are rapists" gets through to some of his supporters (who are happy to hear it) and the more nuanced message gets through to those who read the transcript or who parse the words more carefully. It's an added benefit that when the opposing party's media jumps all over the comment, some portion of Trump's supporters believe that they intentionally ignored the intent of Trump's statement and are unfairly characterizing him as racist. Yet to many of his supporters, the racism is a welcome change and a sign of honesty and courage. Whether you personally agree with Trump or not, you must acknowledge the mechanism I'm describing. It's brilliant, and it is why Trump has been so successful. He's able to break through the wall of fake-sounding language that holds back much political speech and reap the benefits of a more raw and hostile form of speech, while still being viewed as having expressed a reasonable view by his more sophisticated supporters. If you don't view them as deliberate word salad bombs, then they are gaffes, but there have now been way too many of them for it to be accidental. Trump understands how to speak both in text and subtext for maximum emotional impact. So while I personally find Trump to be one of the most reprehensible characters ever to hold high office in the US (and also a big embarrassment), I do give him credit for being skilled at political rhetoric.

rconti 7y ago

It's a very charitable interpretation. Unfortunately, the administration is actively working to prevent the CDC from spreading useful information.

microcolonel 7y ago
If that's what they're trying, it's failing; and I'm not sure that's an accurate idea of what they're trying either.
- rconti 7y ago
  It IS failing, due to public interest. Reuters reported today that Coronavirus briefings have been classified to limit information sharing [1] They've blamed it on Mexicans running over the southern border [2] They've called it "the flu" They've kneecapped professionals at every turn (stopped the CDC from reporting how many people have been tested, tried to muzzle Nancy Messonnier for saying a Coronavirus outbreak was inevitable in this country, [3] They're still asking for cuts to the CDC [4] The president called the Governor of Washington "a snake" to cut down his credibility, cut off his head of HHS to lie to the public and say tests were available, he's most concerned that the US count of infections will go up if they let the cruise ship passengers on US soil, preferring, presumably, to let them die and infect each other [5] They overrode CDC's plan to recommend that elderly people and fragile people not get on airplanes [6] Generally, it is beyond clear that they are most concerned with not looking in control, and giving out mixed messages that will lead to death. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-secrecy-exclusive/exclusive-white-house-told-federal-health-agency-to-classify-coronavirus-deliberations-sources-idUSKBN20Y2LM https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-secrec... [2] https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/10/cdc-director-border-wall-coronavirus-125007 https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/10/cdc-director-border... [3] https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/07/trump-coronavirus-management-style-123465 https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/07/trump-coronavirus-m... [4] https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/trump-administration-isn-t-backing-proposed-cuts-cdc-budget-n1155411 https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/trump-administratio... [5] https://www.wired.com/story/trumps-coronavirus-press-event-was-even-worse-than-it-looked/ https://www.wired.com/story/trumps-coronavirus-press-event-w... [6] https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/486475-trump-administration-overrode-health-officials-recommendation-that-elderly https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/486475-trump-administr...