4 ms·

I'm not suggesting re writing everything. I'm suggesting that it's irresponsible to start a new project in an unsafe language when an equally efficient safe lan

I'm not suggesting re writing everything. I'm suggesting that it's irresponsible to start a new project in an unsafe language when an equally efficient safe language is available.

vlovich123 7y ago
This isn't a new project. Also tooling is a thing & in bigger companies you have to deal with inertia (retraining people is hard). I think at some point the bullet has to be bitten. I also think there's some value in figuring out how to write C/C++ -> Rust translators to automate some of this process. That's the only way we can get ahead of the curve.
- HideousKojima 7y ago
  It's possible to migrate C to Rust function by function, not sure if anyone has figured out something similar for C++ yet though: https://github.com/carols10cents/rust-out-your-c-talk https://github.com/carols10cents/rust-out-your-c-talk
  - steveklabnik 7y ago
    There is also https://github.com/immunant/c2rust https://github.com/immunant/c2rust
Thaxll 7y ago
Rust is not equal to C++, not even language wise and certainly not from a tool / pipeline / libraries / knowledge side. When you have legacy code, with millions line of code you just don't swap for something else for the sake of it might be better. Adding a new language in a medium / large company is not an easy task. I think Rust is a good contender for C++ "replacement" on the long term but it's a really difficult task and you need proper planning.
- jodrellblank 7y ago
  > for the sake of it might be better. There are a billion Windows computers on the planet. Each time we have a buffer overrun which gives attackers access or lets them exfiltrate user data, real people are at risk. At risk of ID theft, of money theft, of scammers, of crypolockers, of extortion and blackmail, of company collapse and job loss, of stolen business secrets, of fines, and of wasted time. Each time we have an urgent patch, tens of thousands of IT people around the world have to hurry to patch/bodge/remediate/mitigate/educate systems with little warning and little testing, dragged away from whatever else they were doing. Microsoft have proven they can't do this competently in C++. Are we not long past the "might be better to have tools which check" speculation, and far into "definitely definitely definitely is better" by now? If not by now, what will it take to convince you? (I'm not saying "Definitely Rust", but something - Microsoft make implementations of C++, T-SQL, C#, F#, JS/TypeScript, VB.Net, and employ many top Haskell people at Microsoft Research, and various other languages, they aren't inexperienced at languages). it's a really difficult task and you need proper planning. Then they should hire good developers and plan properly? They are one of the richest companies on the planet who make some of the most popular programming languages and tools on the planet. They're not a poor-me charity case.
  - pjmlp 7y ago
    Microsoft is fully aware it is reached the tipping point. https://msrc-blog.microsoft.com/2019/07/18/we-need-a-safer-systems-programming-language/ https://msrc-blog.microsoft.com/2019/07/18/we-need-a-safer-s... https://msrc-blog.microsoft.com/2019/11/07/using-rust-in-windows/ https://msrc-blog.microsoft.com/2019/11/07/using-rust-in-win...
  - Thaxll 7y ago
    Because one issue doesn't mean hurry we need to switch language. Especially not on the OS side where unsafe will be used and has not yet to be proven that is safer than C/C++ with various tools. If you think that's possible why no-one is actually doing it?
    - cyphar 7y ago

I'm not suggesting re writing everything. I'm suggesting that it's irresponsible to start a new project in an unsafe language when an equally efficient safe language is available.

vlovich123 7y ago

This isn't a new project. Also tooling is a thing & in bigger companies you have to deal with inertia (retraining people is hard). I think at some point the bullet has to be bitten. I also think there's some value in figuring out how to write C/C++ -> Rust translators to automate some of this process. That's the only way we can get ahead of the curve.

HideousKojima 7y ago
It's possible to migrate C to Rust function by function, not sure if anyone has figured out something similar for C++ yet though: https://github.com/carols10cents/rust-out-your-c-talk https://github.com/carols10cents/rust-out-your-c-talk
- steveklabnik 7y ago
  There is also https://github.com/immunant/c2rust https://github.com/immunant/c2rust

Thaxll 7y ago

Rust is not equal to C++, not even language wise and certainly not from a tool / pipeline / libraries / knowledge side. When you have legacy code, with millions line of code you just don't swap for something else for the sake of it might be better. Adding a new language in a medium / large company is not an easy task. I think Rust is a good contender for C++ "replacement" on the long term but it's a really difficult task and you need proper planning.

jodrellblank 7y ago
> for the sake of it might be better. There are a billion Windows computers on the planet. Each time we have a buffer overrun which gives attackers access or lets them exfiltrate user data, real people are at risk. At risk of ID theft, of money theft, of scammers, of crypolockers, of extortion and blackmail, of company collapse and job loss, of stolen business secrets, of fines, and of wasted time. Each time we have an urgent patch, tens of thousands of IT people around the world have to hurry to patch/bodge/remediate/mitigate/educate systems with little warning and little testing, dragged away from whatever else they were doing. Microsoft have proven they can't do this competently in C++. Are we not long past the "might be better to have tools which check" speculation, and far into "definitely definitely definitely is better" by now? If not by now, what will it take to convince you? (I'm not saying "Definitely Rust", but something - Microsoft make implementations of C++, T-SQL, C#, F#, JS/TypeScript, VB.Net, and employ many top Haskell people at Microsoft Research, and various other languages, they aren't inexperienced at languages). it's a really difficult task and you need proper planning. Then they should hire good developers and plan properly? They are one of the richest companies on the planet who make some of the most popular programming languages and tools on the planet. They're not a poor-me charity case.
- pjmlp 7y ago
  Microsoft is fully aware it is reached the tipping point. https://msrc-blog.microsoft.com/2019/07/18/we-need-a-safer-systems-programming-language/ https://msrc-blog.microsoft.com/2019/07/18/we-need-a-safer-s... https://msrc-blog.microsoft.com/2019/11/07/using-rust-in-windows/ https://msrc-blog.microsoft.com/2019/11/07/using-rust-in-win...
- Thaxll 7y ago
  Because one issue doesn't mean hurry we need to switch language. Especially not on the OS side where unsafe will be used and has not yet to be proven that is safer than C/C++ with various tools. If you think that's possible why no-one is actually doing it?
  - cyphar 7y ago