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I think a lot of Tesla is simply that they're not the other guys. They're giving people what they want. The dinosaurs have been refusing to innovate in many are

I think a lot of Tesla is simply that they're not the other guys. They're giving people what they want. The dinosaurs have been refusing to innovate in many areas, screwing customers with exploitive dealer networks, dragging their feet on features when it's demanded of them, or just plain making everything miserable about cars for decades. The dinosars deserve to get their ass handed to them until they wake up and serve customers.

Areading314 7y ago
Don't forget deliberately faking their emissions performance
clouddrover 7y ago
> The dinosars deserve to get their ass handed to them until they wake up and serve customers. Who are the dinosaurs? Volkswagen sells 10 million vehicles a year. Toyota sells 10 million vehicles a year. Are you claiming that Volkswagen and Toyota are somehow not serving customers? If they're not serving customers then why are they selling so many cars?
- scotty79 7y ago
  "dinosaurs" as in "old, fat, coldhearted, ugly lizards" not as in "extinct" It's not about the sales. It's about the brand.
  - clouddrover 7y ago
    So the brand's advertising has compromised rationality, which is of course the goal of all advertising. I don't see that it's useful being emotional about it. They're car companies selling cars. You're better off being realistic.
    - jfim 7y ago
      Cars are one of those markets where emotional marketing is more important to some fraction of the customer base. Some people just want a generic econobox that brings them from point A to B, and others are swayed by other things, such as leather seats, ads that show a single car driving by the ocean or in the mountains, fast acceleration, an appealing paint color, high tech looking HUDs, cup holders, moon roof, etc.
hilbertseries 7y ago
I don’t think traditional car manufacturers benefit from dealerships. That’s just some classic US regulatory capture, where car manufacturers can’t sell directly to the consumer to help protect the consumer. Because when you think of someone trying to protect you, you think a car salesman.
- risubramanian 7y ago
  Europe doesn't have the same franchise laws as the US, and they still use dealers.
  - bonestamp2 7y ago
    Exactly. I work in automotive and it's important to understand why traditional automakers have dealers and why Tesla doesn't. The first mass market Tesla (Model S) came to market in post app store world. By that I mean, not only is it possible but it's obvious that vehicles can and should be diagnosed and firmware should be updated over the air. The only reason they were able to throw away the dealer model is because they could collect analytics, perform diagnostics and firmware flashes over the air. Without this advancement, Tesla would need significantly more physical presence akin to dealerships (and in fact, they kind of are building a light showroom/repair network as they grow so the dealer model isn't all that crazy in some respects). Traditional automakers have been around since before OTA was possible or practical or anyone had even thought of it, so dealers were at least necessary at one point in time to perform these tasks. Now that it is possible, and many new vehicles even have wireless internet, very few traditional automakers actually perform remote diagnostics and even fewer update more than a couple ECUs (Electronic Control Units) over the air. There are a number of reasons for and against this, but at the end of the day they were forced into a situation where they needed dealers and for that reason they also have the luxury of offloading many of these tasks onto the dealers. This luxury is actually very important because a major OEM has hundreds of models of vehicles that they need to support. Tesla obviously has far fewer so they can afford to take on some of those diagnostic tasks and of course they have to because they don't have franchises with technicians in them. As for success, I believe Tesla is very successful for a variety of reasons (too many to list, but I'll mention some of the major ones): 1. They care about design. They're not the flashiest or most radical designs, but the designs are very thoughtful, tasteful, elegant and minimalistic -- all of these are qualities that are fashionable at the moment. 2. The cars are technology first... they come with a lot of useful technology that people want because it seems obvious to have these things in contemporary cars. Most other vehicles in the Model 3 price range are technology last -- the technology that seems obvious is a paid upgrade. 3. They are optimistic and progressive. Even when someone knows that some model 3s are built outside in a tent and there are mounting quality and repairability concerns, they don't care because they want to support the flier that just might make a difference in the world.
Ididntdothis 7y ago
As far as I know Tesla is not so nice if you ever need parts to repair something. I agree that car dealership suck but I wouldn’t call Tesla the good guys.
- TwoBit 7y ago
  You think Tesla is being mean or evil when they have a part supply problem? That seems to be what you are saying.
  - muro 7y ago
    If it takes so long, how about "incompetent"?
  - p_l 7y ago
    With other brands, you can source alternative parts and get by fine. With Tesla, a lot of the parts are still standard, but you can't replace it with same or better part that isn't sourced from Tesla supply. Even if it's the same part.
    - tyfon 7y ago
      > With Tesla, a lot of the parts are still standard, but you can't replace it with same or better part that isn't sourced from Tesla supply. Even if it's the same part. What stops you from replacing standard parts? There are quite a few off-brand repair shops here in Norway for things like wipers, brake calipers, regular service etc.
      - close04 7y ago
        Knowing someone in a Tesla authorized service partner I can confirm the practices are... not great. According to the agreement they signed to become an authorized partner and under the threat of withdrawing said authorization, they have quite a few limitations that make for longer wait times and more expensive repairs. For example they are not allowed to order extra parts for stock (they have to "tie" them to a car in service) and they are not allowed to use aftermarket replacement parts even if compatible. I am specifically referring to car parts, not consumables. So break pads yes, break calipers no. Light bulb yes, headlight no. For example you will not find aftermarket headlights for Tesla that you can install in an authorized shop, get warranty, and ideally not discover that the car already logged the use of an AM part. In this case most (all?) aftermarket headlights begin their life as an OEM part that gets modified and this pretty much bypasses the restrictions, technical or administrative. These restrictions may be lifted as Tesla becomes better at making cars and can dedicate resources to making more spare parts, and as they start to allow others to take a bite out of their profit by manufacturing compatible parts but we are not there yet.
delfinom 7y ago
> screwing customers with exploitive dealer networks Haha. My buddy just waited for Tesla to finish repairs on his Model 3 for 4 months and in the mean time had to have a rental. The reason? They couldn't acquire certain bolts. Give me "exploitative dealer networks" that can source parts properly to Tesla's outrageous incompetence of a service network.
- TwoBit 7y ago
  your statement implies that these two things are mutually exclusive, but I'm pretty sure they are not.
moooo99 7y ago
> screwing customers with exploitive dealer networks, Not sure if Tesla's approach to that is more customer friendly. Their cars are basically iPhones on wheels, they are locked down to the same extent. iirc you cannot even get replacements for the most car parts. With traditional cars however, you can basically go everywhere and get your car fixed. No matter if it is a brand dealer or third party repair shop. edit: fixed typos
fxtentacle 7y ago
I think a big part of Tesla is plain old dishonesty, or American bragging, if you want to call it that way. Consumers want autonomous self-driving cars. So Tesla creates marketing videos and then calls their glorified lane assistance and distance keeping assistant an "autopilot". And now, Tesla buyers are frustrated that the software isn't ready yet, or dying due to bugs in said software. But Tesla gets to dodge legal responsibility by writing into the fine print of their EULA that the so-called "autopilot" isn't actually meant to be used like what autopilot means to most people. If anything, Tesla has amazing marketing.
- roenxi 7y ago
  > the so-called "autopilot" isn't actually meant to be used like what autopilot means to most people. Given that autopilot for cars doesn't and never has existed it is likely that it means different things to different people. When I'm driving a car, my function is pretty much a glorified lane assist. If it can do that for me then I'm sold on it being an autopilot. I don't need my car to actually be smarter than I am.
  - fxtentacle 7y ago
    You'd want the car to avoid mistaking reflective surfaces for tunnels. Or not seeing a truck turned sideways due to lack of AI training data. Plus your car should make it easy for you to do the right & safe thing. "The nation’s top safety investigator slammed Tesla on Tuesday for failing to take adequate measures to prevent “foreseeable abuse” of its Autopilot driver-assistance technology" https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2020-02-25/tesla-autopilot-crash-hearing https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2020-02-25/tesla-auto...
    - roenxi 7y ago
      For one that is changing the subject. For two; proving that a Tesla autopilot caused an accident and the regulators are grumpy isn't evidence of anything. Humans frequently have accidents and regulators are typically grumpy. And the evidence in that article is that the car is basically working on autopilot. So the brand name is quite reasonable. If you expect any transport system not to have accidents you are crazy - all modes of transport have accidents from time to time. Also; a tired point; but Tesla's autopilot is going to learn from each fatal accident. That is a massive difference from humans; who stop learning after fatal accidents. Fatal accidents are not going to be a major long-term problem here which stands in sharp contrast to human drivers. It isn't a particularly bad sign as it means Tesla's autopilot will have learned a valuable lesson due to someone-who-is-not-me's misfortune. I'd happily pay money for that. Deaths from bad human driving are meaningless tragedies. Deaths in a new but engineer-able system are extremely meaningful tragedies and are almost good news for everyone who isn't immediately involved.
Hamuko 7y ago
>screwing customers with exploitive dealer networks Having watched Rich Rebuilds' attempt at buying a second-hand Tesla Model X directly from Tesla, I'm not convinced that a) dealerships are bad b) Tesla are the good guys.
growlist 7y ago
> making everything miserable about cars for decades well at least we used to have some diversity in design - these days it's mostly variations on the shapeless blob theme. Yes I know, safety regulations etc etc...
aguyfromnb 7y ago
>The dinosaurs have been refusing to innovate in many areas, screwing customers with exploitive dealer networks Yeah, cars have had no innovation over time...wait, when's the last time you've been in one? And for the most part dealers are independently owned, not some scandalous way to rip off customers. I have owned many new cars in my life (I like tech, so I lease). I've never had an issue with the dealer that wasn't pleasantly resolved. I realize that isn't the case for every person, but dealers are not universally bad, or any worse than any other business. In fact, my wife likes the brand dealer so much that she continues to purchase her cars from them based on that alone. >The dinosars deserve to get their ass handed to them until they wake up and serve customers. You should look around the Tesla forums and Twitter at the complaints. The 'dinosaurs' may be bad, but the idea that Tesla service is somehow better is laughable.

Areading314 7y ago

Don't forget deliberately faking their emissions performance

clouddrover 7y ago

> The dinosars deserve to get their ass handed to them until they wake up and serve customers. Who are the dinosaurs? Volkswagen sells 10 million vehicles a year. Toyota sells 10 million vehicles a year. Are you claiming that Volkswagen and Toyota are somehow not serving customers? If they're not serving customers then why are they selling so many cars?

scotty79 7y ago
"dinosaurs" as in "old, fat, coldhearted, ugly lizards" not as in "extinct" It's not about the sales. It's about the brand.
- clouddrover 7y ago
  So the brand's advertising has compromised rationality, which is of course the goal of all advertising. I don't see that it's useful being emotional about it. They're car companies selling cars. You're better off being realistic.
  - jfim 7y ago
    Cars are one of those markets where emotional marketing is more important to some fraction of the customer base. Some people just want a generic econobox that brings them from point A to B, and others are swayed by other things, such as leather seats, ads that show a single car driving by the ocean or in the mountains, fast acceleration, an appealing paint color, high tech looking HUDs, cup holders, moon roof, etc.

hilbertseries 7y ago

I don’t think traditional car manufacturers benefit from dealerships. That’s just some classic US regulatory capture, where car manufacturers can’t sell directly to the consumer to help protect the consumer. Because when you think of someone trying to protect you, you think a car salesman.

risubramanian 7y ago
Europe doesn't have the same franchise laws as the US, and they still use dealers.
- bonestamp2 7y ago
  Exactly. I work in automotive and it's important to understand why traditional automakers have dealers and why Tesla doesn't. The first mass market Tesla (Model S) came to market in post app store world. By that I mean, not only is it possible but it's obvious that vehicles can and should be diagnosed and firmware should be updated over the air. The only reason they were able to throw away the dealer model is because they could collect analytics, perform diagnostics and firmware flashes over the air. Without this advancement, Tesla would need significantly more physical presence akin to dealerships (and in fact, they kind of are building a light showroom/repair network as they grow so the dealer model isn't all that crazy in some respects). Traditional automakers have been around since before OTA was possible or practical or anyone had even thought of it, so dealers were at least necessary at one point in time to perform these tasks. Now that it is possible, and many new vehicles even have wireless internet, very few traditional automakers actually perform remote diagnostics and even fewer update more than a couple ECUs (Electronic Control Units) over the air. There are a number of reasons for and against this, but at the end of the day they were forced into a situation where they needed dealers and for that reason they also have the luxury of offloading many of these tasks onto the dealers. This luxury is actually very important because a major OEM has hundreds of models of vehicles that they need to support. Tesla obviously has far fewer so they can afford to take on some of those diagnostic tasks and of course they have to because they don't have franchises with technicians in them. As for success, I believe Tesla is very successful for a variety of reasons (too many to list, but I'll mention some of the major ones): 1. They care about design. They're not the flashiest or most radical designs, but the designs are very thoughtful, tasteful, elegant and minimalistic -- all of these are qualities that are fashionable at the moment. 2. The cars are technology first... they come with a lot of useful technology that people want because it seems obvious to have these things in contemporary cars. Most other vehicles in the Model 3 price range are technology last -- the technology that seems obvious is a paid upgrade. 3. They are optimistic and progressive. Even when someone knows that some model 3s are built outside in a tent and there are mounting quality and repairability concerns, they don't care because they want to support the flier that just might make a difference in the world.

Ididntdothis 7y ago

As far as I know Tesla is not so nice if you ever need parts to repair something. I agree that car dealership suck but I wouldn’t call Tesla the good guys.

TwoBit 7y ago
You think Tesla is being mean or evil when they have a part supply problem? That seems to be what you are saying.
- muro 7y ago
  If it takes so long, how about "incompetent"?
- p_l 7y ago
  With other brands, you can source alternative parts and get by fine. With Tesla, a lot of the parts are still standard, but you can't replace it with same or better part that isn't sourced from Tesla supply. Even if it's the same part.
  - tyfon 7y ago
    > With Tesla, a lot of the parts are still standard, but you can't replace it with same or better part that isn't sourced from Tesla supply. Even if it's the same part. What stops you from replacing standard parts? There are quite a few off-brand repair shops here in Norway for things like wipers, brake calipers, regular service etc.
    - close04 7y ago
      Knowing someone in a Tesla authorized service partner I can confirm the practices are... not great. According to the agreement they signed to become an authorized partner and under the threat of withdrawing said authorization, they have quite a few limitations that make for longer wait times and more expensive repairs. For example they are not allowed to order extra parts for stock (they have to "tie" them to a car in service) and they are not allowed to use aftermarket replacement parts even if compatible. I am specifically referring to car parts, not consumables. So break pads yes, break calipers no. Light bulb yes, headlight no. For example you will not find aftermarket headlights for Tesla that you can install in an authorized shop, get warranty, and ideally not discover that the car already logged the use of an AM part. In this case most (all?) aftermarket headlights begin their life as an OEM part that gets modified and this pretty much bypasses the restrictions, technical or administrative. These restrictions may be lifted as Tesla becomes better at making cars and can dedicate resources to making more spare parts, and as they start to allow others to take a bite out of their profit by manufacturing compatible parts but we are not there yet.

delfinom 7y ago

> screwing customers with exploitive dealer networks Haha. My buddy just waited for Tesla to finish repairs on his Model 3 for 4 months and in the mean time had to have a rental. The reason? They couldn't acquire certain bolts. Give me "exploitative dealer networks" that can source parts properly to Tesla's outrageous incompetence of a service network.

TwoBit 7y ago
your statement implies that these two things are mutually exclusive, but I'm pretty sure they are not.

moooo99 7y ago

> screwing customers with exploitive dealer networks, Not sure if Tesla's approach to that is more customer friendly. Their cars are basically iPhones on wheels, they are locked down to the same extent. iirc you cannot even get replacements for the most car parts. With traditional cars however, you can basically go everywhere and get your car fixed. No matter if it is a brand dealer or third party repair shop. edit: fixed typos

fxtentacle 7y ago

I think a big part of Tesla is plain old dishonesty, or American bragging, if you want to call it that way. Consumers want autonomous self-driving cars. So Tesla creates marketing videos and then calls their glorified lane assistance and distance keeping assistant an "autopilot". And now, Tesla buyers are frustrated that the software isn't ready yet, or dying due to bugs in said software. But Tesla gets to dodge legal responsibility by writing into the fine print of their EULA that the so-called "autopilot" isn't actually meant to be used like what autopilot means to most people. If anything, Tesla has amazing marketing.

roenxi 7y ago
> the so-called "autopilot" isn't actually meant to be used like what autopilot means to most people. Given that autopilot for cars doesn't and never has existed it is likely that it means different things to different people. When I'm driving a car, my function is pretty much a glorified lane assist. If it can do that for me then I'm sold on it being an autopilot. I don't need my car to actually be smarter than I am.
- fxtentacle 7y ago
  You'd want the car to avoid mistaking reflective surfaces for tunnels. Or not seeing a truck turned sideways due to lack of AI training data. Plus your car should make it easy for you to do the right & safe thing. "The nation’s top safety investigator slammed Tesla on Tuesday for failing to take adequate measures to prevent “foreseeable abuse” of its Autopilot driver-assistance technology" https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2020-02-25/tesla-autopilot-crash-hearing https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2020-02-25/tesla-auto...
  - roenxi 7y ago
    For one that is changing the subject. For two; proving that a Tesla autopilot caused an accident and the regulators are grumpy isn't evidence of anything. Humans frequently have accidents and regulators are typically grumpy. And the evidence in that article is that the car is basically working on autopilot. So the brand name is quite reasonable. If you expect any transport system not to have accidents you are crazy - all modes of transport have accidents from time to time. Also; a tired point; but Tesla's autopilot is going to learn from each fatal accident. That is a massive difference from humans; who stop learning after fatal accidents. Fatal accidents are not going to be a major long-term problem here which stands in sharp contrast to human drivers. It isn't a particularly bad sign as it means Tesla's autopilot will have learned a valuable lesson due to someone-who-is-not-me's misfortune. I'd happily pay money for that. Deaths from bad human driving are meaningless tragedies. Deaths in a new but engineer-able system are extremely meaningful tragedies and are almost good news for everyone who isn't immediately involved.

Hamuko 7y ago

>screwing customers with exploitive dealer networks Having watched Rich Rebuilds' attempt at buying a second-hand Tesla Model X directly from Tesla, I'm not convinced that a) dealerships are bad b) Tesla are the good guys.

growlist 7y ago

> making everything miserable about cars for decades well at least we used to have some diversity in design - these days it's mostly variations on the shapeless blob theme. Yes I know, safety regulations etc etc...

aguyfromnb 7y ago

>The dinosaurs have been refusing to innovate in many areas, screwing customers with exploitive dealer networks Yeah, cars have had no innovation over time...wait, when's the last time you've been in one? And for the most part dealers are independently owned, not some scandalous way to rip off customers. I have owned many new cars in my life (I like tech, so I lease). I've never had an issue with the dealer that wasn't pleasantly resolved. I realize that isn't the case for every person, but dealers are not universally bad, or any worse than any other business. In fact, my wife likes the brand dealer so much that she continues to purchase her cars from them based on that alone. >The dinosars deserve to get their ass handed to them until they wake up and serve customers. You should look around the Tesla forums and Twitter at the complaints. The 'dinosaurs' may be bad, but the idea that Tesla service is somehow better is laughable.