7 ms·
That didn't leave the controversy behind at all, most of the controversy is far past their valuation. Tesla is only interesting as a car company to people who a
by djehh3r7d 7y ago
That didn't leave the controversy behind at all, most of the controversy is far past their valuation. Tesla is only interesting as a car company to people who are willing to lower their expectations below those placed on the actual car companies.
They market themselves as environmentally friendly while representing a comedically small percent of global emissions reduction. And within the auto industry itself the increasing efficiency of ICE vehicles has reduced emissions by far more than Tesla and their electric car hype.
At the same time, they advocate infrastructure expansions to accomodate their vehicle's needs while handwaving away the emissions and environmental consequences this process would create. And every time this is mentioned people just blubber some line about the long term while covering their ears to the tide of environmentalists saying that we need change /now/.
They might conquer Europe through legislation but the only reason that's practical is because European countries are tiny so the range issue is less relevant to them. Tesla hasn't actually cleared their hurdles, they've surrendered to them.
Meanwhile, they drum up this idea that Tesla's can be more than toys for rich people even though no one blue collar who isn't already a hard fan chooses a Tesla. In fact, speaking of legislation, they're so uncompetitive that Europe has to ban ICE engines for them to gain ground.
Even you framed this as Tesla competing against luxury brands, key word being luxury. This world where they've paved the way for cheap mainstream electric vehicles is a fantasy. They've paved the way for novelty in the luxury market and since doing so have shown little aptitude beyond their ability to wield that accomplishment as a shield to deflect criticisms.
- random314 7y agoYou should self reflect about how incredibly bitter you sound. Tesla is a new successful electric car company that is helping with CO2 emission reduction. Nothing in your rant challenges this.
- mehrzad 7y agoAnd how are the emissions of electric car and car battery production looking?
- CydeWeys 7y agoOver the lifetime of the vehicle, much better than an ICE vehicle.
- mehrzad 7y agoCompared to used cars and public transit though, it doesn't nearly look as good. I like Tesla, but there is a lot more to be done before I consider their work truly environmentally friendly.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- CydeWeys 7y agoSure, agreed. Another problem is that cars are quite deadly, and EVs don't improve on that any. Then there's the whole issue of tire/brake dust (it's the majority of local pollution even for gasoline-powered cars). E-bikes are a much better environmentally friendly solution for most trips. The problem is the road infrastructure isn't there for them to be safe enough yet; we only build roads for cars, and anyone else (pedestrian or cyclist) is at high risk.
- AnthonyMouse 7y agoNobody manufactures used cars. They all start as new and they all have a finite lifetime as a result of wear and collisions. A used electric car is better for the environment than a used ICE car, but the only way to get used electric cars is to make new electric cars.
- mehrzad 7y agoIsn't it better for society to focus on improving public transit than electric? You could say "we don't have to choose" but it seems SV already did.
- new_realist 7y agoTesla has spent $20B so far. All of that money created a burst of carbon emissions which they haven’t yet offset though EV sales: especially since they sell pollution credits to other manufacturers. They’re still deeply in the hole.
- FpUser 7y agoCare to post any numbers showing how much the overall lifecycle of Tesla's car is reducing CO2 emission over making better ICE based cars? And what about overall pollution. Lithium batteries hold a lots of poison.
- Klathmon 7y agoHere (PDF warning) is a link to a study done (in 2018) that shows that an electric car produces less co2 emissions than an ICE car over 150,000km. It takes into account different types of ICE cars, it takes into account the environmental impact of building the batteries, it takes into account the emissions produced by the power plants for several European countries, and it even predicts how things can improve or change if current trends continue. With the exception of Germany (where lifetime EV emissions are very similar to an "efficient" ICE due to their more "dirty" power generation), an EV produces less CO2 over it's lifetime. In fact the higher upfront emissions in manufacturing an EV are "paid back" within 2 years on average. And because the environmental impact of an EV is so dependent on how "green" the power generation is, investments in green power can lessen the impact of cars already sold! https://theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/EV-life-cycle-GHG_ICCT-Briefing_09022018_vF.pdf https://theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/EV-life...
- frandroid 7y ago> They market themselves as environmentally friendly while representing a comedically small percent of global emissions reduction. And within the auto industry itself the increasing efficiency of ICE vehicles has reduced emissions by far more than Tesla and their electric car hype. The emissions reductions attained by manufacturers have been done while fighting tooth and nail against them; also, it's good that they're reducing emissions, but you just eliminate them completely by driving a Tesla.
- tardo99 7y agoWhat about the emissions involved in mining lithium, making the batteries, dealing with the batteries once they're exhausted, and in generating the electricity. Also, what about the emissions involved in building and maintaining the road infrastructure?
- toomuchtodo 7y agoNecessary and solvable (if we've decided cars as a transportation method are here to stay, which appears to be the case in most countries). Lithium is evaporated in ponds, transport of which can move to electric. Lithium batteries can be recycled. All heavy vehicles (including for road infra work) can be electrified. Electricity is ubiquitous, and batteries will only decline in cost. This is not my opinion, these are facts. As long as we keep ramping battery and renewables production, we'll get ahead of the emissions. To reduce emissions, you must displace combustion in all its forms, and destroy demand for fossil fuels. Renewables push out coal and natural gas on the grid, utility scale batteries push out natural gas due to price volatility (hat tip to Saudi Arabia on their current efforts to destroy the US fracking industry through pumping at full capacity, utilities desperately require stable prices for their fuels which is unlikely to happen if shale production declines due to low oil prices, which will prompt more rapid battery uptake), cheap/clean energy drives demand for EVs due to lower cost per mile than internal combustion (EVs are roughly half the cost per mile to operate as an internal combustion vehicle).
- djehh3r7d 7y ago
- fastball 7y agoI know on HN we're supposed to be constructive and promote dialogue and all that, but this is just such an obviously biased avalanche of nonsense that I can't help myself: Found the TSLA short.
- vgchh 7y agoTesla is no longer a novelty. They just manufactured the millionth car. I own a model 3 and people ask me how do I like it. My usual answer is that I have "no compelling reason" to buy an ICE car - ever. Despite all the free marketing that Tesla gets, I don't think people grok how good the car actually drives in real. You really need to experience living with it to appreciate why it's a game changer.
- tardo99 7y agoYou think it's more of a game changer than the $8500 used Nissan Leaf I bought (which, before you start, is perfect for me because I use it around town, and yes it works fine for 95+% of my car trips, including 100% of my commuting miles)? I'll tell you something. I'm sure enjoying having that extra $60k in my bank account that I saved by not buying a horribly overpriced depreciating asset.
- CydeWeys 7y agoYou're just making a general argument about buying used vs new. That's not interesting, or revelatory. It's just overly judgmental. And you're quite off on the price of a Model 3. I think you're confusing it for the Model S.
- elihu 7y ago> They market themselves as environmentally friendly while representing a comedically small percent of global emissions reduction. And within the auto industry itself the increasing efficiency of ICE vehicles has reduced emissions by far more than Tesla and their electric car hype. You have to start somewhere. Tesla is increasing their manufacturing capacity about as fast as you can reasonably expect any company to do it. Just because high-volume manufacturers like Ford or Honda or Volkswagen can have more impact on CO2 emissions by reducing fuel consumption slightly on many more vehicles is no reason to disdain what Tesla is doing on a smaller scale.
- alasdair_ 7y ago> no one blue collar who isn't already a hard fan chooses a Tesla My friend is a Master electrician in the IBEW union. He is in no way a “hard fan” of Tesla. He put down a deposit on the new truck that they are making because he thought it was better than his other options.
- cjhopman 7y agoHaha. It's a $100 deposit for a car that'll never sell as they showed it. I wouldn't read too much into that.
- Dumblydorr 7y agoWith this logic, you would've expected Steve Jobs to introduce a non-luxury iPhone and expect it to compete mass market from day 1. Tesla's plan was always to start at the high end with early adopters, show an EV can be great, and slowly scale down prices, which they have done. I can't envision them doing it a different way successfully.