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One of my coworkers daughters is affected by this. The big question this begs: If there is no refund being offered for the content shifting online from in-per

• why-el 7y ago
  > If courses being taught online is an acceptable substitute, why have caps on admission at all? Most assignments are not scored in an automated manner, and the number of staff is not unlimited.
  • logfromblammo 7y ago
    Given the usual university budget and the going rate for overqualified, part-time, and temporary adjuncts, the staff is less limited than one might think. Remote students and remote adjuncts--what do you need administrators for? Ah, yes, to collect the tuition, attend the luncheons, and issue the credentials. It would at least put a small dent in the oversupply of Ph.D. holders in some fields.
    • agustif 7y ago
      Well if MIT/Stanford/Harvard are what they are because of the elitism of getting to study there, and the branding-power it brings to one's resume, it kinda seems obvious they will have 0 interest in have an unlimited supply of students/graduates, which surely would diminish/affect the branding power on a resume of any of those universities programs, if literally a lots of new graduates could be graduating from those schools. Elitism works in a limited setting, probably not in an limited/open setting...
      • logfromblammo 7y ago
        My point is that there is no supply-scarcity limit on university teaching positions. But you are correct that each university has a monopoly on their own brand, so they can restrict supply and raise prices up to the monopolistic competition limit (as the other universities are close substitutes). For the select few universities whose degrees are a Veblen good, the more they charge for their degrees and faculty positions (not just in tuition, but in time, application qualifications, and influence), the more they return in upper-class prestige (not just faculty pay and graduate earnings). You can't project that you only take the top 0.1%, if you admit 0.2% of all high-school graduates. That prestige problem is especially dire with medical colleges in the US. The patient community (aka everybody) desires more numerous, cheaper, and better-distributed physicians, but the physician community desires higher-paying positions that are more costly to fill, with a remuneration premium for working in less desirable territories. So only some hospitals are teaching hospitals, and their residency programs have limited slots. (I think the Army/VA system could possibly break that cartel, by ordering qualified recruits that sign up for a longer term of service to become physicians, and routing their medical training outside of the civilian system. It would certainly drop ER visit prices when those stabilization specialists and trauma surgeons get their 20 and start to "retire" out to civilian jobs.) If universities are going to order students and faculty to leave campus, they are removing a huge piece of their competitive advantage over universities that already have mature distance-learning programs, but with lower tuition. If MIT takes its campus off the table, the thing they have left is their brand name. That's enough to sustain them, specifically, but there aren't many other universities that could get away with it. The one just up Massachusetts Avenue, maybe, and a handful of others. And they still have to pay for grounds and facilities upkeep, even if they aren't using them as much. Any other distance learning program could probably hire 1 remote adjunct for every 10-15 remote students and outdo "two sections of lecture hall plus office hours" tenured professors that have a 1:300 ratio. They can use some of the savings for cheap test proctors at distributed--and possibly also shared--evaluation sites. If every surplus Ph.D. can get a part-time remote teaching-support gig for 20 hours a week at $25/hour, they can still keep working the jobs they already have, that don't require their advanced degrees, because their graduate universities did not restrict Ph.D. output to just what the industry could bear. A degree from MIT might open more interview doors, but there is less difference in switching between schools like Rose-Hulman and Georgia Tech. If campus location is no longer a factor, any student could study at any school. Schools that want to survive under such competition would have to bring down costs, fast.
• nightfly 7y ago
  At other schools the online offerings for courses can be more expensive than the in-person offerings. Online doesn't mean that you have unlimited capacity for students. You still need to grade homework and exams, offer virtual "office hours", answer emails.
  • enitihas 7y ago
    > You still need to grade homework and exams, offer virtual "office hours", answer emails. But all of the above can be done by TAs, and do not need a professor. Professor time is much more limited.
    • BelleOfTheBall 7y ago
      That still takes 'manpower', which is limited, and there's likely some stipulations that require the professors to actually do one-on-one time with students, not just always delegate to TAs.
      • enitihas 7y ago
        Yup, but it should free up professor time by a large amount. Manpower is still limited, but far more manpower is available compared to before.
        • petschge 7y ago
          I am at a (small) academic meeting right now and all of the professors in attendance fear how much extra effort this move to online-only classes will be and how it is going to cut into their research time.
          • enitihas 7y ago
            Why should there be extra effort for online classes? My university had a course where an external professor would deliver a mixed online/offline course. Videos were available on institute website. Professor would hold a class every week to go through that week's contents and clarify student doubts. This saved a ton of effort on the professor's part.
• neets 7y ago
  Aren't undergraduate ivy league programs more about signaling status than actually becoming educated?
  • narak 7y ago
    MIT isn't ivy league and probably the least 'about signaling' school in the US...
    • csallen 7y ago
      Yes and no. It's been 10 years since I graduated, but I doubt much has changed. The curriculum is rigorous, the students are smart, and people are serious about learning. But nevertheless, going to MIT does signal something much stronger than the vast majority of other schools, and MIT students are highly aware of that, as is the institution itself.
    • TylerE 7y ago
      cough Media Lab.
    • kelnos 7y ago
      MIT may not signal the same thing that an Ivy does, but it certainly signals something, and the faculty, staff, students, and graduates are certainly aware of and use that.
    • downerending 7y ago
      Pretty sure my school you never heard of has MIT beat on that one.
  • deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  • ericd 7y ago
    The signalling is definitely a thing, but the bigger thing is just getting together with lots of smart people and working together to learn this stuff.
  • 7y ago
• colechristensen 7y ago
  A university education is not a SaaS product. We are getting to the point where lectures should be mandated to be recorded and put into the public domain, and the University's value proposition in admission, tuition, and residence should be the everything else involved which could raise the focus away from re-doing the same lectures over and over.
  • rifung 7y ago
    > We are getting to the point where lectures should be mandated to be recorded and put into the public domain Does that really make sense? I thought MIT was a private institution. The research is often publicly funded but I don't believe that's the case for the tuition.
  • Jtsummers 7y ago
    There's a lot of value in running through the lecture live with a new class. Different students, different needs. If my undergrad CS Theory prof had used recorded lectures, it would've been great for 5 of us, and terrible for the other 30 or so. There were sections that they just did not get and needed repetition or clarifying examples. What's more, the students often don't know what they aren't understanding (sometimes they do, but often not). So they don't know how to ask for clarification because they don't know what needs clarification. Waiting for test, quizzes, or homeworks is often too late. What worked out well for my classmates was the help of the professor and a couple of us who got the material faster. The three of us could observe the class and identify what material (by non-verbal reaction or by questions) needed to be delved into more. Try doing that with a set of recorded lectures. In the end, perhaps you have a sufficiently complete set of recorded lectures that cover everything. But you still have the challenge of identifying what students need help with and helping them immediately, instead of failing a large portion of a class and hoping you do better the next time. I mean, this is literally the waterfall vs agile debate. Classrooms are agile and responsive to student needs, recorded lectures are not.
    • sarbaz 7y ago
      This sounds pretty silly. There's bound to be a way to make online (or semi-online) learning agile too. Distance learning is basically a solved problem and has been done for hundreds of years. How about recorded lectures and in-person small group recitations? Or longer office hours? Obviously you have to change the methodology of learning a bit, but I'm sure it can be figured out. In any case undergrad level science lectures are basically a one-sided info dump where the lecturer is lucky to get so much as an ACK that someone is listening.
• whymauri 7y ago
  I've been told there are currently meetings to discuss the process for partially reimbursing room and board.
• deleted 7y ago
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• gumby 7y ago
  I don't think anyone believes online is an acceptable substitute to a traditional MIT education, but it's a lot better than nothing, and better than continuing the in person teaching. I'm an MIT grad and know the benefits of being on campus. In fact I spent more time in the lab than I did in classes or my dorm and that just isn't possible online. My son's school (Courant) has sent everyone home too, with online substitute, but like MIT that only really works for undergrads.
  • JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago
    What about lab work that demands physical access to facilities and equipment? Not everything can be virtualized.
    • AnimalMuppet 7y ago
      I don't know. But if they can solve it, then a true online degree becomes possible, not just in an emergency. That's going to be revolutionary. Twenty years from now, everyone having to move to a physical location to attend a university is going to seem insane... if they can solve it.
      • raegis 7y ago
        The harder problem is preventing cheating, which is already difficult to do in-person.
      • iso947 7y ago
        A key part of moving away from your parents and going to uni is moving away from your parents. You are thrust into a whole new world, and that forces you to challenge your world view.
  • WalterBright 7y ago
    I would have flunked out of Caltech without constant "troll sessions" with fellow students in the dorm helping each other understand the homework problems. If I was in that situation today, I'd prefer the semester be outright cancelled and replaced with a summer semester.
• smacktoward 7y ago
  These are good questions, but nobody is going to have good answers, at least not yet. We’re in an unprecedented situation, which means that over the next few weeks just about every institution out there is going to be doing a whole lot of improvising. It sucks, and it’s highly unlikely that everyone who has to make sacrifices will ever be completely made whole. All that can be said is that it beats the alternative.
• droithomme 7y ago
  > If there is no refund being offered for the content shifting online from in-person, why have in-person at all? Most MIT undergrads pay no tuition, even though tuition is something like $70,000 a year there. They have a massive endowment and are thus on average one of the lowest cost colleges in the US, though not as low cost as Princeton. What refunds could they give? > Is room and board going to be refunded? Undoubtedly. > If courses being taught online is an acceptable substitute, why have caps on admission at all? Most of MIT's undergraduate course work is on line and free for anyone to take. Many take advantage of that. They also have a Masters program, the first year of which anyone who wants to can take it for free. Those who do well are admitted to the second year. MIT's way ahead of other universities on online education and does extremely well with it. The main "problem" is that MIT is in the top two engineering schools in the world, their classes are extremely rigorous and it simply is not for everyone. 99% of the world population, to be blunt, are not intelligent enough to do well there. And MIT has no intention of dumbing it down to be more "fair and equal" in accordance with the democratic ideal of minimal expectations. But yes, there are effectively no caps on admission if you want to take online classes there. You won't get an MIT diploma, but you will learn the material and what you do with it is up to you.
• viraptor 7y ago
  > If courses being taught online is an acceptable substitute, why have caps on admission at all? Mit was probably the first offering serious online courses with recognised certification. You can do their micromaster if you want: https://micromasters.mit.edu/ https://micromasters.mit.edu/ So it's not like they don't offer the option. They also published opencourseware if you don't need the paper itself. I'm not saying they don't provide value locally, but they do push for online education themselves and literally provide you resources for free.
• samatman 7y ago
  Most of the value of an elite education is signaling: it proves the student had what it takes both to get into MIT, and to graduate. If MIT switched to an online-only format, that would erode the value of the latter (which, remember, is social proof, not something which is notoriously rational), while open enrollment would obliterate the former. A semester of remote teaching won't damage the brand.
  • WalterBright 7y ago
    > Most of the value of an elite education is signaling Not in my case (Caltech). It was clear when I got an industry job that a BS from Caltech was at about the same level as an MS from other institutions. But if the institution is large enough, one can get an elite education by careful selection of the classes and professors, and doing the maximum in those classes rather than just getting by. For example, take honors calculus, not weeder calculus. Don't avoid the math heavy classes. Don't waste your time with easy-A classes. If you don't find yourself studying 6 hours a day, you're not getting an elite education.
    • theLotusGambit 7y ago
      > If you don't find yourself studying 6 hours a day, you're not getting an elite education. Seems like an unhealthy attitude to me. I really dislike the perspective that education is at its best when the learning is most difficult. The best teachers are the ones that make things as clear and digestible as possible. Bad teachers are the ones that want to see you sweat.
      • WalterBright 7y ago
        It isn't about wanting to torture students. I never learned so much so fast before or since - and there was a lot to learn. I prefer teachers that expect a lot from their students. It's not fundamentally different from athletics. If you want to be a good athlete, you're going to have to work your tail off. If you want to be an incredible engineer like Kelly Johnson, that ain't going to happen if you party through school. Nor would you have any chance of working with an engineer like him. So ask yourself - do you want to design rocket engines? or cup holders? --- BTW, as for health, I came out of Caltech a far more confident person than when I entered. I knew what I could do, and was happy about it.
• nostrademons 7y ago
  > If there is no refund being offered for the content shifting online from in-person, why have in-person at all? There isn't really a good reason other than some people being more disciplined when there's a human instructor that they see face to face every couple days. Plenty of people self-teach from MOOCs, MIT OCW, or just buying the textbooks and working through the exercises and get just as good an education. When you go to an elite college, you're really paying for the degree. This is also why there are caps on admission: it creates scarcity value for graduates from that university. When there are fewer graduates with a credential, companies that want to employ them have to compete for a limited number of human resources, which drives up wages. Additionally, the university can impose selection bias on matriculating freshmen who will eventually receive the credential, which helps maintain the reputation of the university's graduates. If you don't maintain the selectivity of the institution, you end up with what's happening in the mid-tier for-profit colleges, where students take out massive loans for a degree but then it doesn't really improve their employment prospects much. If everybody has a college degree, its financial value is basically 0.
  • thulecitizen 7y ago
    To me what you write are great arguments for tuition free universities, like the ones in Sweden. It makes society much more equitable and egalitarian. This whole artificial scarcity thing is such a lose-lose for everyone in society.
    • nostrademons 7y ago
      To me it highlights one of the big failings of markets, which is that a tool/credential/innovation only has economic value if it's used by some but not all producers in the market. Once it becomes universally adopted it becomes an opportunity for rent-seeking by the producer of that tool/credential/innovation. In some ways this is the great strength of capitalism, because it provides an incentive to adopt innovations that helps overcome the status-quo bias that most humans have. But it also encourages firms to restrict access to their suppliers and tear their competitors down rather than building everybody up.
• titzer 7y ago
  I am teaching a University course right now. Online is absolutely not a substitute for butts-in-seats, work on the blackboard, live questions, etc, type of style that an actual classroom affords. IMHO it is less work for everyone overall, because being in person and taking notes makes students focus and remember better. I think the outcomes are better.