5 ms·

> They have already had an alarming degree of success at this through the institution of "Codes of Conduct" on many projects. This has led to the expulsion of

by chx 7y ago

> They have already had an alarming degree of success at this through the institution of "Codes of Conduct" on many projects. This has led to the expulsion of productive contributors for un-PCness; it's not just a problem in theory. Talk to me. Seriously, you can not talk about this topic without talking to me because you are talking about me anyways. (And no, ESR never reached out to me.) I have been, by any measure, the most prolific code contributor to the Drupal project for many years, 2005-2012 at least, maybe a year or two more even. I have been banned from the Drupal project for Code Of Conduct violations in 2016. It shattered me. They have been right to do so. Relevant blog posts: https://medium.com/@chx/women-of-drupal-ive-failed-you-and-i-am-sorry-fa22f37801b5 https://medium.com/@chx/women-of-drupal-ive-failed-you-and-i... (I just updated this with an archive.org link to a post that is now absent from its original place.) https://medium.com/@chx/a-note-from-an-open-source-lead-developer-who-got-banned-from-his-community-due-to-code-of-conduct-22d8f066ab9e https://medium.com/@chx/a-note-from-an-open-source-lead-deve... this specifically deals with meritocracy and this post is the most important: you need to understand it's not about some abstract PC-ness it's about driving people away. Do read https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/blog/2018/a-case-study-in-not-being-a-jerk-in-open-source https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/blog/2018/a-case-study-in... about how to formulate a message without this sort of language. And now I am back with a much diminished role https://medium.com/@chx/here-we-go-again-not-quite-a9d52ad93200 https://medium.com/@chx/here-we-go-again-not-quite-a9d52ad93... and life is good again.

monksy 7y ago
Why give back to someone that has stabbed you in the back?
- sounds 7y ago
  Can you please post specific claims about @chx?
  - monksy 7y ago
    My message was based on his posts about the situation.
    - sascha_sl 7y ago
      you may want to re-read it, because your framing is way off he /admits/ to having been wrong
    - Qwertious 7y ago
      It sounds like that comment was implying the burden of proof is on you to justify that chx was "stabbed in the back" when from the sounds of it, even chx disagrees with that characterisation.
      - chx 7y ago
        a multiyear process with repeated warnings in email and in person is very hard to describe as stabbing anyone in the back
- teraflop 7y ago
  That's an awfully loaded question. Based on chx's comment and those links, I think it's very unlikely he thinks "stabbed in the back" is an accurate description.
sascha_sl 7y ago
thank you for recognizing there was an issue, and thank you for trying to do better
catalogia 7y ago
> I have been banned from the Drupal project for Code Of Conduct violations in 2016. Out of curiosity, how long did they ban you for and will they give you any 'parole hearings' for good behavior? Or is this a lifetime ban without possibility of parole? In most countries somebody convicted of murder might hope to one day be declared rehabilitated, but it's not clear to me what role rehabilitation plays in CoC enforcement.
- chx 7y ago
  > Out of curiosity, how long did they ban you for at the time, this was never clearly stated but I believe the shared understanding was indefinite > will they give you any 'parole hearings' for good behavior noone even thought of that > but it's not clear to me what role rehabilitation plays in CoC enforcement. This is not as simple as sitting on the bench for a time and then you are back and yay. I'd say the road to rehabilitation is rare. You do not get the banhammer for straying just once and so if you are hell bent on being so toxic that you need to be banned then bending out of that shape is probably quite rare. It took the entire #metoo movement (for me especially Susan Fowler's incredible Uber blog post, the Hungarian accusations I blogged about and the infamous Drupal one I alluded to in the blog post) to shake me badly enough to make it possible to re-investigate my entire world view on these topics. And then came the time when the CoC was introduced to Linux and the bro avalanche again provided me a unique opportunity to say "no. this is not right." and I spent an entire day on reddit trying to answer all this crap. I got lucky but as they say, luck is when preparedness meet opportunity and I am not sure others will have these opportunities. If you haven't read Susan Fowler's Whistleblower book, do so now.
  - catalogia 7y ago
    > This is not as simple as sitting on the bench for a time and then you are back and yay. Neither are parole hearings. I wouldn't expect them to let you rejoin after a predetermined amount of time, but I would expect them to periodically reconsider the ban given the latest up to date evidence about your personality/character. If you came to understand the error in your ways and made demonstrable moves to improve the way you conduct yourself (it sounds like you have), surely that should be considered.
ofrzeta 7y ago
It's quite interesting to read the last paragraph on that page that lists your offenses. "We are now looking forward to Linus Torvalds to be shown the door from the Linux project. He has long steered it abusively and has even been identified on mass media publications as a verbally insulting jerk. Him being a white male, the epitome of exclusivity, is just the cherry on top." That sure sounds like someone on a mission (also caring a lot about other people's business). Also (as someone occasionally working with Drupal 8) I found it interesting that commenting on the routing/menu system was one of the reasons that got you kicked out. Although I could not find any of the alleged "comments ... aimed at" Larry Garfield. On a side note this was obviously before Garfield himself was removed from the Drupal community about a year later due to violation of the code of conduct.
- chx 7y ago
  First, to quote myself: > Due to repeated Code Of Conduct violations two years ago I was banned from Drupal. This story is known and frankly, not worth a damn discussing it again. It’s only a background. Second, let me state this extremely clearly and forcefully: it was better for the community and at the end of the day, for myself, to ban me at the end of 2016. It is absolutely pointless and a fruitless waste of time trying to dissect the specifics leading up to that (especially for people who were not part of the community and can't remember how it was -- and frankly, why should anyone remember? Almost all of this is 5+ years ago.). And despite it gave me an opportunity to grow as a person, it is still a wound that hurts prying into so I respectfully ask not to. and > We are now looking forward to Linus Torvalds to be shown the door from the Linux project This was a joke. Nonetheless, Linus was seen industry wide as a jerk (again check https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/blog/2018/a-case-study-in-not-being-a-jerk-in-open-source https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/blog/2018/a-case-study-in... ) and a few months after that blog post, Linus stepped away for a month and a CoC was established -- how effective that all was, well, https://lkml.org/lkml/2019/6/13/1892 https://lkml.org/lkml/2019/6/13/1892 and for the consequences of such behavior see https://lwn.net/ml/linux-fsdevel/20200217001153.GE10776@dread.disaster.area/ https://lwn.net/ml/linux-fsdevel/20200217001153.GE10776@drea...
  - yencabulator 7y ago

by chx 7y ago

monksy 7y ago

Why give back to someone that has stabbed you in the back?

sounds 7y ago
Can you please post specific claims about @chx?
- monksy 7y ago
  My message was based on his posts about the situation.
  - sascha_sl 7y ago
    you may want to re-read it, because your framing is way off he /admits/ to having been wrong
  - Qwertious 7y ago
    It sounds like that comment was implying the burden of proof is on you to justify that chx was "stabbed in the back" when from the sounds of it, even chx disagrees with that characterisation.
    - chx 7y ago
      a multiyear process with repeated warnings in email and in person is very hard to describe as stabbing anyone in the back
teraflop 7y ago
That's an awfully loaded question. Based on chx's comment and those links, I think it's very unlikely he thinks "stabbed in the back" is an accurate description.

sascha_sl 7y ago

thank you for recognizing there was an issue, and thank you for trying to do better

catalogia 7y ago

> I have been banned from the Drupal project for Code Of Conduct violations in 2016. Out of curiosity, how long did they ban you for and will they give you any 'parole hearings' for good behavior? Or is this a lifetime ban without possibility of parole? In most countries somebody convicted of murder might hope to one day be declared rehabilitated, but it's not clear to me what role rehabilitation plays in CoC enforcement.

chx 7y ago
> Out of curiosity, how long did they ban you for at the time, this was never clearly stated but I believe the shared understanding was indefinite > will they give you any 'parole hearings' for good behavior noone even thought of that > but it's not clear to me what role rehabilitation plays in CoC enforcement. This is not as simple as sitting on the bench for a time and then you are back and yay. I'd say the road to rehabilitation is rare. You do not get the banhammer for straying just once and so if you are hell bent on being so toxic that you need to be banned then bending out of that shape is probably quite rare. It took the entire #metoo movement (for me especially Susan Fowler's incredible Uber blog post, the Hungarian accusations I blogged about and the infamous Drupal one I alluded to in the blog post) to shake me badly enough to make it possible to re-investigate my entire world view on these topics. And then came the time when the CoC was introduced to Linux and the bro avalanche again provided me a unique opportunity to say "no. this is not right." and I spent an entire day on reddit trying to answer all this crap. I got lucky but as they say, luck is when preparedness meet opportunity and I am not sure others will have these opportunities. If you haven't read Susan Fowler's Whistleblower book, do so now.
- catalogia 7y ago
  > This is not as simple as sitting on the bench for a time and then you are back and yay. Neither are parole hearings. I wouldn't expect them to let you rejoin after a predetermined amount of time, but I would expect them to periodically reconsider the ban given the latest up to date evidence about your personality/character. If you came to understand the error in your ways and made demonstrable moves to improve the way you conduct yourself (it sounds like you have), surely that should be considered.

ofrzeta 7y ago

It's quite interesting to read the last paragraph on that page that lists your offenses. "We are now looking forward to Linus Torvalds to be shown the door from the Linux project. He has long steered it abusively and has even been identified on mass media publications as a verbally insulting jerk. Him being a white male, the epitome of exclusivity, is just the cherry on top." That sure sounds like someone on a mission (also caring a lot about other people's business). Also (as someone occasionally working with Drupal 8) I found it interesting that commenting on the routing/menu system was one of the reasons that got you kicked out. Although I could not find any of the alleged "comments ... aimed at" Larry Garfield. On a side note this was obviously before Garfield himself was removed from the Drupal community about a year later due to violation of the code of conduct.

chx 7y ago
First, to quote myself: > Due to repeated Code Of Conduct violations two years ago I was banned from Drupal. This story is known and frankly, not worth a damn discussing it again. It’s only a background. Second, let me state this extremely clearly and forcefully: it was better for the community and at the end of the day, for myself, to ban me at the end of 2016. It is absolutely pointless and a fruitless waste of time trying to dissect the specifics leading up to that (especially for people who were not part of the community and can't remember how it was -- and frankly, why should anyone remember? Almost all of this is 5+ years ago.). And despite it gave me an opportunity to grow as a person, it is still a wound that hurts prying into so I respectfully ask not to. and > We are now looking forward to Linus Torvalds to be shown the door from the Linux project This was a joke. Nonetheless, Linus was seen industry wide as a jerk (again check https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/blog/2018/a-case-study-in-not-being-a-jerk-in-open-source https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/blog/2018/a-case-study-in... ) and a few months after that blog post, Linus stepped away for a month and a CoC was established -- how effective that all was, well, https://lkml.org/lkml/2019/6/13/1892 https://lkml.org/lkml/2019/6/13/1892 and for the consequences of such behavior see https://lwn.net/ml/linux-fsdevel/20200217001153.GE10776@dread.disaster.area/ https://lwn.net/ml/linux-fsdevel/20200217001153.GE10776@drea...
- yencabulator 7y ago