3 ms·

Your statements do not seem to be supported: - Holodomor: did happen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor) - Katyn m

by esarbe 7y ago

Your statements do not seem to be supported: - Holodomor: did happen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor) - Katyn massacre: was executed by NKVD (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre) - 1956 Hungarian revolt: started as a student protest (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Revolution_of_1956 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Revolution_of_1956) - The Gulags: did exist (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag_Archipelago https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag_Archipelago) and so on. If you want to claim that Wikipedia is "fascist propaganda", sure, go for it. But then we can end this exchange right here and now with nothing accomplished. Do you have any sources for your claims?

lucian1900 7y ago
Wikipedia isn't fascist propaganda, but it is also not immune to it. It also doesn't help that it is edited by people living under the domination of capitalism. The capitalists in power are materially incentivised to oppose socialism, since they wish to keep the profits gained from their workers' labour. There were periodic famines in Ukraine. One of them was exacerbated through destruction of food by feudal landlords (kulaks) to keep prices high and maintain control. The Soviet state sent aid and, after the collectivisation and mechanisation of farming, no such famines happened again (http://www.rationalrevolution.net/special/library/tottlefraud.pdf http://www.rationalrevolution.net/special/library/tottlefrau...) There is a lot of physical evidence that does not match the idea that the Soviets committed the Katyn massacre. (https://www.cpgb-ml.org/2018/12/15/news/history/book-grover-furrs-mystery-of-the-katyn-massacre/ https://www.cpgb-ml.org/2018/12/15/news/history/book-grover-...) The 1956 uprising started with students, led by a member of the previous fascist government. There are some historical reports of racial violence against Jews and the uprising's demands included the re-introduction of capitalism. Most of what I learned about this was from Romanian history books, I can't find relevant English sources right now. Gulags did exist, they were the prison system. From all historical accounts we have, they weren't any worse than other contemporary prison and in some ways better. They also didn't have that many prisoners, the US has always led there. A lot of what is commonly believed about them comes from Solzhenitsyn's Gulag Archipelago. However, he is widely considered by historians to be unreliable. His own wife made it clear the book is fictional, as even the Wikipedia article admits. There's some more info on anti-Stalin propaganda specifically here: https://stalinsocietypk.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/another-view-of-stalin1.pdf https://stalinsocietypk.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/another-...
- AnimalMuppet 7y ago
  The 1956 uprising started with students, led by a member of the previous fascist government. There are some historical reports of racial violence against Jews and the uprising's demands included the re-introduction of capitalism. Most of what I learned about this was from Romanian history books, I can't find relevant English sources right now. Wanting to re-introduce capitalism. How very fascist of them. How dare they? /s The fact that you include that in the list of things wrong with the 1956 uprising speaks volumes about where you're coming from.
  - Koshkin 7y ago
    > led by a member of the previous fascist government ... violence against Jews Well, that doesn't sound good...
    - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
      I agree. If true, it's very bad news. The rest of lucian1900's posts on this topic have been colored enough, however, to make me less than certain of the truth of this statement.
      - lucian1900 7y ago
        This all I’ve been able to find so far in English. It does cite some primary sources, but not as much as I’d like. https://liberationschool.org/06-12-05-the-real-lessons-1956-uprising-i-html/ https://liberationschool.org/06-12-05-the-real-lessons-1956-...
        esarbe 7y ago
        Hey thanks! I'm very skeptical about your claims, but I'll have a look fore sure.

by esarbe 7y ago

lucian1900 7y ago

Wikipedia isn't fascist propaganda, but it is also not immune to it. It also doesn't help that it is edited by people living under the domination of capitalism. The capitalists in power are materially incentivised to oppose socialism, since they wish to keep the profits gained from their workers' labour. There were periodic famines in Ukraine. One of them was exacerbated through destruction of food by feudal landlords (kulaks) to keep prices high and maintain control. The Soviet state sent aid and, after the collectivisation and mechanisation of farming, no such famines happened again (http://www.rationalrevolution.net/special/library/tottlefraud.pdf http://www.rationalrevolution.net/special/library/tottlefrau...) There is a lot of physical evidence that does not match the idea that the Soviets committed the Katyn massacre. (https://www.cpgb-ml.org/2018/12/15/news/history/book-grover-furrs-mystery-of-the-katyn-massacre/ https://www.cpgb-ml.org/2018/12/15/news/history/book-grover-...) The 1956 uprising started with students, led by a member of the previous fascist government. There are some historical reports of racial violence against Jews and the uprising's demands included the re-introduction of capitalism. Most of what I learned about this was from Romanian history books, I can't find relevant English sources right now. Gulags did exist, they were the prison system. From all historical accounts we have, they weren't any worse than other contemporary prison and in some ways better. They also didn't have that many prisoners, the US has always led there. A lot of what is commonly believed about them comes from Solzhenitsyn's Gulag Archipelago. However, he is widely considered by historians to be unreliable. His own wife made it clear the book is fictional, as even the Wikipedia article admits. There's some more info on anti-Stalin propaganda specifically here: https://stalinsocietypk.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/another-view-of-stalin1.pdf https://stalinsocietypk.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/another-...

AnimalMuppet 7y ago
The 1956 uprising started with students, led by a member of the previous fascist government. There are some historical reports of racial violence against Jews and the uprising's demands included the re-introduction of capitalism. Most of what I learned about this was from Romanian history books, I can't find relevant English sources right now. Wanting to re-introduce capitalism. How very fascist of them. How dare they? /s The fact that you include that in the list of things wrong with the 1956 uprising speaks volumes about where you're coming from.
- Koshkin 7y ago
  > led by a member of the previous fascist government ... violence against Jews Well, that doesn't sound good...
  - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
    I agree. If true, it's very bad news. The rest of lucian1900's posts on this topic have been colored enough, however, to make me less than certain of the truth of this statement.
    - lucian1900 7y ago
      This all I’ve been able to find so far in English. It does cite some primary sources, but not as much as I’d like. https://liberationschool.org/06-12-05-the-real-lessons-1956-uprising-i-html/ https://liberationschool.org/06-12-05-the-real-lessons-1956-...
      - esarbe 7y ago
        Hey thanks! I'm very skeptical about your claims, but I'll have a look fore sure.