3 ms·

Lies: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

lucian1900 7y ago
Indeed, lies. Wikipedia is full of them. https://www.cpgb-ml.org/2018/12/15/news/history/book-grover-furrs-mystery-of-the-katyn-massacre/ https://www.cpgb-ml.org/2018/12/15/news/history/book-grover-...
- macspoofing 7y ago
  Heh. How can you think a fringe, extremist and ideologically-based organization like the "Communist Party of Great Britain" is objective and credible about the USSR? These communist organizations have a vested interest in lying about the humanitarian and economic disaster that 20th-century experimentation with communism was. I suspect you're in that boat as well, in that you couldn't support these communist regimes if the mainstream historical account of their societies is true - right?
  - lucian1900 7y ago
    Do capitalist organisations not have a vested interest in lying about socialism? It's very frustrating that the economic system that vastly improved the material condition of my ancestors is casually slandered by Westerners. Capitalism was imposed on Eastern Europe and now my country is worse off than when my parents were my age. Capitalism is only good for the exploiter, but a disaster for the exploited.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - alehander42 7y ago
      Yeah mate, you can tell that stuff to westerners, but not to local people, sorry: Bulgaria and Romania were a victim of this cultish insane "system" for ~45 years, not anymore. And closing one's eyes for communist atrocities is not more normal than nazi supporters lying about the holocost: you have to understand that both ideologies have much in common in their hateful antiutopic histories. I mean, think about it: really, you don't think a more logical conclusion is that all of USA, commie powers and nazi germany used "political ideologies" for power, war and control? You think "nomenclatura" really cared about financial equality? come on
    - alehander42 7y ago
      Also, if you're talking about Romania: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980s_austerity_policy_in_Romania https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980s_austerity_policy_in_Roma... seems true: my own father passed through there in the 80s as a part of an army exercise, local people needed cans with food from the soldiers.. and we are talking about bulgarian soldiers, Bulgaria wasnt well back then at all itself. I went to Romania several weeks ago and the difference between what i've heard about Ceausesku's time and what i've seen now is huge, so dont mislead people. Dont get me wrong: I am honestly not a fan of capitalism, but to praise in any way murderous/socipath-based regimes as those ones.. is very sad
      - lucian1900 7y ago
        There was austerity in the 80s in Romania, just like in the 70s in Poland. In both cases, it was enforced through IMF policy that came with the loans given. The loans were sought in both cases in order to increase industrial production and sell goods to the West. After WW2 and the fascist dictatorship, Romania was extremely poor and basically feudal. It is truly astonishing how quickly it was industrialised and how quickly the people's material condition improved: https://mobile.twitter.com/isgoodrum/status/1136693839526223872 https://mobile.twitter.com/isgoodrum/status/1136693839526223... No one was homeless (rent was max 5% of income) or unemployed (guaranteed jobs), essentials were cheap (food, clothes and trains), all education and healthcare were free, etc. While mistakes were made back then and technology has advanced since, economic inequality has vastly increased after 89.
        alehander42 7y ago
        But industrializing fast just gets you to one point: two problems with that in Bulgaria. First: yeah, this was a good thing .. until technology moved forward which was very hard to replicate in plan economies.. in Bulgaria hard industry and many factories were built without good economy reasons and they didnt really compete with western stuff which was made obvious after the changes. Yes, some of this privatization stuff seemed so chaotic and yes, we did have our own mafia years.. but AFAIK it was deeply (and still is) connected to the same class that ran the "communist" country before that which gets me to the second point: you cant just say economic equality, without context: yes, on paper stuff was like this, but from what i've heard reality was much more a gray zone: inequality was being pronounced in other means, ability to travel, development in army/life/job(after all: you didnt have much choice as the government decided on most of that), all kinds of car/apartment/other government assistance things, secret police pressure: it wasnt a rosy picture just to get stuff that is available in many nordic countries
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - alehander42 7y ago
      Listen, I like your enthusiasm: I really want to show you the other side of the story: I know that what one hears from relatives/favorite ideologs makes some things very hard to swallow. However you should search for the truth and in this case there is more to the story. I am mostly telling you our own bulgarian experience:finally, communism was also forcefully imposed in Bulgaria: so many people died after the "People's court" and in "Belene" camp(I think even my grandpa was there for a bit as a part of a 10 year sentence, thank God, he survived). The red army/russians stayed and helped the socialist get the power, gradually isolating everyone else politically. Those things happened, they are not a "fabricated story" sadly. We shouldn't leave modern communism erase this part of history

lucian1900 7y ago

Indeed, lies. Wikipedia is full of them. https://www.cpgb-ml.org/2018/12/15/news/history/book-grover-furrs-mystery-of-the-katyn-massacre/ https://www.cpgb-ml.org/2018/12/15/news/history/book-grover-...

macspoofing 7y ago
Heh. How can you think a fringe, extremist and ideologically-based organization like the "Communist Party of Great Britain" is objective and credible about the USSR? These communist organizations have a vested interest in lying about the humanitarian and economic disaster that 20th-century experimentation with communism was. I suspect you're in that boat as well, in that you couldn't support these communist regimes if the mainstream historical account of their societies is true - right?
- lucian1900 7y ago
  Do capitalist organisations not have a vested interest in lying about socialism? It's very frustrating that the economic system that vastly improved the material condition of my ancestors is casually slandered by Westerners. Capitalism was imposed on Eastern Europe and now my country is worse off than when my parents were my age. Capitalism is only good for the exploiter, but a disaster for the exploited.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - alehander42 7y ago
    Yeah mate, you can tell that stuff to westerners, but not to local people, sorry: Bulgaria and Romania were a victim of this cultish insane "system" for ~45 years, not anymore. And closing one's eyes for communist atrocities is not more normal than nazi supporters lying about the holocost: you have to understand that both ideologies have much in common in their hateful antiutopic histories. I mean, think about it: really, you don't think a more logical conclusion is that all of USA, commie powers and nazi germany used "political ideologies" for power, war and control? You think "nomenclatura" really cared about financial equality? come on
  - alehander42 7y ago
    Also, if you're talking about Romania: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980s_austerity_policy_in_Romania https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980s_austerity_policy_in_Roma... seems true: my own father passed through there in the 80s as a part of an army exercise, local people needed cans with food from the soldiers.. and we are talking about bulgarian soldiers, Bulgaria wasnt well back then at all itself. I went to Romania several weeks ago and the difference between what i've heard about Ceausesku's time and what i've seen now is huge, so dont mislead people. Dont get me wrong: I am honestly not a fan of capitalism, but to praise in any way murderous/socipath-based regimes as those ones.. is very sad
    - lucian1900 7y ago
      There was austerity in the 80s in Romania, just like in the 70s in Poland. In both cases, it was enforced through IMF policy that came with the loans given. The loans were sought in both cases in order to increase industrial production and sell goods to the West. After WW2 and the fascist dictatorship, Romania was extremely poor and basically feudal. It is truly astonishing how quickly it was industrialised and how quickly the people's material condition improved: https://mobile.twitter.com/isgoodrum/status/1136693839526223872 https://mobile.twitter.com/isgoodrum/status/1136693839526223... No one was homeless (rent was max 5% of income) or unemployed (guaranteed jobs), essentials were cheap (food, clothes and trains), all education and healthcare were free, etc. While mistakes were made back then and technology has advanced since, economic inequality has vastly increased after 89.
      - alehander42 7y ago
        But industrializing fast just gets you to one point: two problems with that in Bulgaria. First: yeah, this was a good thing .. until technology moved forward which was very hard to replicate in plan economies.. in Bulgaria hard industry and many factories were built without good economy reasons and they didnt really compete with western stuff which was made obvious after the changes. Yes, some of this privatization stuff seemed so chaotic and yes, we did have our own mafia years.. but AFAIK it was deeply (and still is) connected to the same class that ran the "communist" country before that which gets me to the second point: you cant just say economic equality, without context: yes, on paper stuff was like this, but from what i've heard reality was much more a gray zone: inequality was being pronounced in other means, ability to travel, development in army/life/job(after all: you didnt have much choice as the government decided on most of that), all kinds of car/apartment/other government assistance things, secret police pressure: it wasnt a rosy picture just to get stuff that is available in many nordic countries
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - alehander42 7y ago
    Listen, I like your enthusiasm: I really want to show you the other side of the story: I know that what one hears from relatives/favorite ideologs makes some things very hard to swallow. However you should search for the truth and in this case there is more to the story. I am mostly telling you our own bulgarian experience:finally, communism was also forcefully imposed in Bulgaria: so many people died after the "People's court" and in "Belene" camp(I think even my grandpa was there for a bit as a part of a 10 year sentence, thank God, he survived). The red army/russians stayed and helped the socialist get the power, gradually isolating everyone else politically. Those things happened, they are not a "fabricated story" sadly. We shouldn't leave modern communism erase this part of history