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> I interpreted all of the things you listed as indications that statistics and scientific analysis have limitations and can't predict success or failure, not a

> I interpreted all of the things you listed as indications that statistics and scientific analysis have limitations and can't predict success or failure, not as indications that he would fail and die in the end. I did so for the "heart beats". But every other point has nothing to do with statistics or scientific analysis. I really can't say definitively that he died on his way to titan, but the evidence is fairly overwhelming. It wouldn't have been hinted at so much in the movie and the movie would not have ended with that quote otherwise. > And again, a major theme of the story is that the two men are more capable of achieving great things together than apart. That's a bit of a reach but you are entitled to the view. > You seem to have a thesis that the film is a tragedy and are working backwards from there. No. I watched Gattaca as a kid and loved it and saw it as an inspirational movie. Everything you believed, I believed. Then I got older and watched the movie a few more times. My thesis changed from inspirational to tragedy. As I said, my view of the movie changed. And I love the movie more now because it is richer, deeper and more consequential than a good simplistic feel good inspirational movie. > And remember that neither Vincent nor Eugene (Jerome) were in a good place prior to meeting each other. They weren't in a good place at the end either. Anyways, you are entitled to your view. I used to view it like you and I suspect it's most people's first impressions when they first watch the movie. But after repeated viewing, it's hard to watch someone burning himself to death and a man's looking into space and "going home" as inspirational. There are inspirational aspects to the film, but I don't think that's what the movie is really about. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

npunt 7y ago
Thank you both for this discussion, it was quite enjoyable to read!
danpalmer 7y ago
> But every other point has nothing to do with statistics or scientific analysis. I really can't say definitively that he died on his way to titan, but the evidence is fairly overwhelming. It wouldn't have been hinted at so much in the movie and the movie would not have ended with that quote otherwise. Do you have anything else that points to this? I've watched Gattaca 5-6 times I reckon, and never picked up on a hint that Vincent dies. For the heart beats, I've always interpreted it as the world won't give him a chance because _statistically_ he has a low likelihood of success compared to the "guaranteed" success of genetic engineering. To me Vincent and Eugene are a rejection of this – showing that humans aren't just statistics, and that the guarantees are no such thing. As for the "never saving anything for the way back" theme, I've always interpreted that as a part of this too. The idea that statistics aren't everything, going for the "guaranteed" outcome might limit your upside, etc. I'm pretty sure that "going home" isn't a reference to death. In the context of the few lines it's in, he's talking about how maybe he's not leaving because the atoms in our bodies come from stars. Finally, for me, there are too many references in Vincent's relationship with Irene that show an intent to return and an expectation that he will. Being gone for a year and that being "just one trip around the sun", lead the audience to see his trip as bittersweet because he's achieved his goal but will have to leave Irene temporarily, but ultimately a positive ending for him as he embarks on a new stage in his life. The gift of all the samples from Eugene, enough to last a lifetime, backs up this idea.
- dntbnmpls 7y ago
  > Do you have anything else that points to this? I've watched Gattaca 5-6 times I reckon, and never picked up on a hint that Vincent dies. Other than what I wrote, I can't think of anything else. > For the heart beats, I've always interpreted it as the world won't give him a chance because _statistically_ he has a low likelihood of success compared to the "guaranteed" success of genetic engineering. Same. I used to believe it. Now I don't. Sure. It's statistics. But there are actual physical limits and performance. Even though Vincent surpassed the time expectations of his heart ( which was a ball park figure with a margin of error ), he can't surpass the physical limits. He can't run without his heart nearly exploding. That's why he has to cheat. He needs record Jerome's heartbeat. Those tests are to ensure that the astronauts can survive months/years of space travel to Titan and to thrive in Titan. Vincent, at least his heart, can't perform. Gattaca is a society with unfair genetic discrimination and also fair performance tests. Vincent could be praised for overcoming the unfair discrimination, but he should also be criticized for cheating fair performance tests. If a legally blind person wanted to drive and cheated his way to a driver's license. Would you cheer him as he sits down on the driver's seat? Of course not. > As for the "never saving anything for the way back" theme, I've always interpreted that as a part of this too. The idea that statistics aren't everything, going for the "guaranteed" outcome might limit your upside, etc. Same. I used to believe it. Now I don't. Now I interpret it as someone who has a major inferiority complex and a huge chip on his shoulder that's willing to die rather than lose. Not only is he willing to commit suicide than lose, he's willing to kill his own brother in the process. If you think about what the swim contest was about, it's about Vincent's willingness to kill himself and his own brother. That's why in the second race, when Vincent tells his brother, his brother looks at him in absolute horror and turns back. Vincent is all too human. The unfairness of society and his lot in life has made him willing to cheat, die and kill to get what he wants and screw over society. > I'm pretty sure that "going home" isn't a reference to death. In the context of the few lines it's in, he's talking about how maybe he's not leaving because the atoms in our bodies come from stars. "Leaving this world". "Going home". Returning to the atoms from whence we come from. Like ashes to ashes, dust to dust. > Finally, for me, there are too many references in Vincent's relationship with Irene that show an intent to return and an expectation that he will. He left his parents/brothers for good and he loved them. He also left Jerome to his death. Not sure Irene is that much more special. Vincent has shown that people means less to him than his goal. Besides, didn't the flight window between earth and titan open every 77 years or so? Besides vincent doesn't save anything for the trip back. > The gift of all the samples from Eugene, enough to last a lifetime, backs up this idea. Last "two" ( jerome's and vincent's ) lifetimes. Do you really think Jerome was able to produce that much blood, urine and skin/hair samples for two lifetimes? The last part of the film, both jerome and vincent were trying their best to avoid the elephant in the room ( their impending deaths ). That dinner scene, vincent asks jerome what he'll do after he leaves for titan. There is an awkward silence followed by silly response from jerome. And then Jerome toasts on his life on titan and asks what titan is like. But Jerome knows vincent is never going to reach titan alive and Vincent knows Jerome isn't going to last long after he leaves. Besides, if Vincent intended to reach Titan and come back, he'd bring a few samples with him. Samples for id check on titan and of course id check when he arrives back on earth. If they check ids on the way to titan, don't you think there will be id checks on the way back or at least at the destination when he gets off the spaceship? But then again, he doesn't save anything for the trip back. His actions and his last statement makes me believe that he is not too long for this world.
throwanem 7y ago
He doesn't save anything for the trip back. But he gets back. Every time.

npunt 7y ago

Thank you both for this discussion, it was quite enjoyable to read!

danpalmer 7y ago

> But every other point has nothing to do with statistics or scientific analysis. I really can't say definitively that he died on his way to titan, but the evidence is fairly overwhelming. It wouldn't have been hinted at so much in the movie and the movie would not have ended with that quote otherwise. Do you have anything else that points to this? I've watched Gattaca 5-6 times I reckon, and never picked up on a hint that Vincent dies. For the heart beats, I've always interpreted it as the world won't give him a chance because _statistically_ he has a low likelihood of success compared to the "guaranteed" success of genetic engineering. To me Vincent and Eugene are a rejection of this – showing that humans aren't just statistics, and that the guarantees are no such thing. As for the "never saving anything for the way back" theme, I've always interpreted that as a part of this too. The idea that statistics aren't everything, going for the "guaranteed" outcome might limit your upside, etc. I'm pretty sure that "going home" isn't a reference to death. In the context of the few lines it's in, he's talking about how maybe he's not leaving because the atoms in our bodies come from stars. Finally, for me, there are too many references in Vincent's relationship with Irene that show an intent to return and an expectation that he will. Being gone for a year and that being "just one trip around the sun", lead the audience to see his trip as bittersweet because he's achieved his goal but will have to leave Irene temporarily, but ultimately a positive ending for him as he embarks on a new stage in his life. The gift of all the samples from Eugene, enough to last a lifetime, backs up this idea.

dntbnmpls 7y ago
> Do you have anything else that points to this? I've watched Gattaca 5-6 times I reckon, and never picked up on a hint that Vincent dies. Other than what I wrote, I can't think of anything else. > For the heart beats, I've always interpreted it as the world won't give him a chance because _statistically_ he has a low likelihood of success compared to the "guaranteed" success of genetic engineering. Same. I used to believe it. Now I don't. Sure. It's statistics. But there are actual physical limits and performance. Even though Vincent surpassed the time expectations of his heart ( which was a ball park figure with a margin of error ), he can't surpass the physical limits. He can't run without his heart nearly exploding. That's why he has to cheat. He needs record Jerome's heartbeat. Those tests are to ensure that the astronauts can survive months/years of space travel to Titan and to thrive in Titan. Vincent, at least his heart, can't perform. Gattaca is a society with unfair genetic discrimination and also fair performance tests. Vincent could be praised for overcoming the unfair discrimination, but he should also be criticized for cheating fair performance tests. If a legally blind person wanted to drive and cheated his way to a driver's license. Would you cheer him as he sits down on the driver's seat? Of course not. > As for the "never saving anything for the way back" theme, I've always interpreted that as a part of this too. The idea that statistics aren't everything, going for the "guaranteed" outcome might limit your upside, etc. Same. I used to believe it. Now I don't. Now I interpret it as someone who has a major inferiority complex and a huge chip on his shoulder that's willing to die rather than lose. Not only is he willing to commit suicide than lose, he's willing to kill his own brother in the process. If you think about what the swim contest was about, it's about Vincent's willingness to kill himself and his own brother. That's why in the second race, when Vincent tells his brother, his brother looks at him in absolute horror and turns back. Vincent is all too human. The unfairness of society and his lot in life has made him willing to cheat, die and kill to get what he wants and screw over society. > I'm pretty sure that "going home" isn't a reference to death. In the context of the few lines it's in, he's talking about how maybe he's not leaving because the atoms in our bodies come from stars. "Leaving this world". "Going home". Returning to the atoms from whence we come from. Like ashes to ashes, dust to dust. > Finally, for me, there are too many references in Vincent's relationship with Irene that show an intent to return and an expectation that he will. He left his parents/brothers for good and he loved them. He also left Jerome to his death. Not sure Irene is that much more special. Vincent has shown that people means less to him than his goal. Besides, didn't the flight window between earth and titan open every 77 years or so? Besides vincent doesn't save anything for the trip back. > The gift of all the samples from Eugene, enough to last a lifetime, backs up this idea. Last "two" ( jerome's and vincent's ) lifetimes. Do you really think Jerome was able to produce that much blood, urine and skin/hair samples for two lifetimes? The last part of the film, both jerome and vincent were trying their best to avoid the elephant in the room ( their impending deaths ). That dinner scene, vincent asks jerome what he'll do after he leaves for titan. There is an awkward silence followed by silly response from jerome. And then Jerome toasts on his life on titan and asks what titan is like. But Jerome knows vincent is never going to reach titan alive and Vincent knows Jerome isn't going to last long after he leaves. Besides, if Vincent intended to reach Titan and come back, he'd bring a few samples with him. Samples for id check on titan and of course id check when he arrives back on earth. If they check ids on the way to titan, don't you think there will be id checks on the way back or at least at the destination when he gets off the spaceship? But then again, he doesn't save anything for the trip back. His actions and his last statement makes me believe that he is not too long for this world.

throwanem 7y ago

He doesn't save anything for the trip back. But he gets back. Every time.