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> Vincent definitely doesn't die on his way to Titan. I'm not sure where you got that from. It's alluded to a few times in the movie. Vincent never saves anyt

> Vincent definitely doesn't die on his way to Titan. I'm not sure where you got that from. It's alluded to a few times in the movie. Vincent never saves anything for the swim back. Vincent specifically mentions that he is living on borrowed time as he has surpassed the "number of beats expected of his heart". And there is the treadmill scene where he was barely able to hang on. Remember that the training was to select people who can physically survive the journey and thrive on titan. Not to mention Vincent doesn't bring any of Jerome's urine,blood,etc with him to Titan. Do you really believe they don't check your identification on titan? Also, the lock of hair that Jerome gave to Vincent is an acknowledgment of Vincent that Jerome isn't going to make it and of course that Vincent isn't going to make it either. Finally, the last words of Vincent: "For someone who was never meant for this world, I must confess, I'm suddenly having a hard time leaving it. Of course, they say every atom in our bodies was once a part of a star. Maybe I'm not leaving; maybe I'm going home." > Jerome also self-immolates because he realizes that his purpose is now completed, not because he is cynical and depressed. That's a very upbeat view. But people don't normally celebrate fulfilling their purpose by burning themselves to death. Some believe that Vincent's death symbolizes going to heaven since he overachieved and Jerome's death is hell ( burning ) because he underachieved. > Vincent through achieving his goal of becoming an astronaut and Jerome through providing his identity and biological material for a greater purpose. But there's the rub, Vincent didn't become an astronaut, "Jerome" did. Even when Vincent succeeded, he didn't. > "I got the better end of the deal. I only lent you my body - you lent me your dream." Yes. And neither achieved their dream and both died at the end. And Jerome also left enough blood,urine,etc for two lifetimes... Think about what that really means. I used to view Gattaca as you did. It was inspirational like Rudy. But then I watched it more and started noticing more aspects of the movie and it is far deeper and far more tragic than a generic inspirational movie. It's a tragedy.

keiferski 7y ago
I interpreted all of the things you listed as indications that statistics and scientific analysis have limitations and can't predict success or failure, not as indications that he would fail and die in the end. This is perhaps the main theme of the film: "There is no gene for the human spirit." You seem to have a thesis that the film is a tragedy and are working backwards from there. This goes against essentially everything in the film: its uplifting soundtrack, its message of overcoming the obstacles that society places in our way, and its argument that sometimes our true purpose is not to excel individually, but as a help and teammate to others. > But there's the rub, Vincent didn't become an astronaut, "Jerome" did. Even when Vincent succeeded, he didn't. Jerome is just his name and saying he didn't succeed because his achievements weren't listed under his own name seems a bit shallow, as if the only definition of success is fame. And again, a major theme of the story is that the two men are more capable of achieving great things together than apart. Remember that neither Vincent nor Eugene (Jerome) were in a good place prior to meeting each other. Jerome, the astronaut, is the successful identity created from the merging of both men, not simply one man using another's name.
- dntbnmpls 7y ago
  > I interpreted all of the things you listed as indications that statistics and scientific analysis have limitations and can't predict success or failure, not as indications that he would fail and die in the end. I did so for the "heart beats". But every other point has nothing to do with statistics or scientific analysis. I really can't say definitively that he died on his way to titan, but the evidence is fairly overwhelming. It wouldn't have been hinted at so much in the movie and the movie would not have ended with that quote otherwise. > And again, a major theme of the story is that the two men are more capable of achieving great things together than apart. That's a bit of a reach but you are entitled to the view. > You seem to have a thesis that the film is a tragedy and are working backwards from there. No. I watched Gattaca as a kid and loved it and saw it as an inspirational movie. Everything you believed, I believed. Then I got older and watched the movie a few more times. My thesis changed from inspirational to tragedy. As I said, my view of the movie changed. And I love the movie more now because it is richer, deeper and more consequential than a good simplistic feel good inspirational movie. > And remember that neither Vincent nor Eugene (Jerome) were in a good place prior to meeting each other. They weren't in a good place at the end either. Anyways, you are entitled to your view. I used to view it like you and I suspect it's most people's first impressions when they first watch the movie. But after repeated viewing, it's hard to watch someone burning himself to death and a man's looking into space and "going home" as inspirational. There are inspirational aspects to the film, but I don't think that's what the movie is really about. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
  - npunt 7y ago
    Thank you both for this discussion, it was quite enjoyable to read!
  - danpalmer 7y ago
    > But every other point has nothing to do with statistics or scientific analysis. I really can't say definitively that he died on his way to titan, but the evidence is fairly overwhelming. It wouldn't have been hinted at so much in the movie and the movie would not have ended with that quote otherwise. Do you have anything else that points to this? I've watched Gattaca 5-6 times I reckon, and never picked up on a hint that Vincent dies. For the heart beats, I've always interpreted it as the world won't give him a chance because _statistically_ he has a low likelihood of success compared to the "guaranteed" success of genetic engineering. To me Vincent and Eugene are a rejection of this – showing that humans aren't just statistics, and that the guarantees are no such thing. As for the "never saving anything for the way back" theme, I've always interpreted that as a part of this too. The idea that statistics aren't everything, going for the "guaranteed" outcome might limit your upside, etc. I'm pretty sure that "going home" isn't a reference to death. In the context of the few lines it's in, he's talking about how maybe he's not leaving because the atoms in our bodies come from stars. Finally, for me, there are too many references in Vincent's relationship with Irene that show an intent to return and an expectation that he will. Being gone for a year and that being "just one trip around the sun", lead the audience to see his trip as bittersweet because he's achieved his goal but will have to leave Irene temporarily, but ultimately a positive ending for him as he embarks on a new stage in his life. The gift of all the samples from Eugene, enough to last a lifetime, backs up this idea.
friendlybus 7y ago
You have to work pretty hard to take the perspective that Vincent dies. Vincent nearly fails the treadmill scene because he is on the edge of panicking under the stress of being revealed to be prime suspect in a murder case that might put him in jail wrongly and will blow his life's dream of getting to Titan. It doesn't matter if they check his ID at Titan, whatever that means. He commented he is outside the police's jurisdiction on the way to Titan, he will have achieved his goal regardless of his publicly known validity after docking at Titan. The line about going home is to illustrate that he is in fact, going home. He was always meant to be among the stars and found regular everyday life difficult. Through his teen years he studied astrophysics, he was an outcast. His home was, is and finally arrived among the stars. Vincent achieved exactly what he set out to do and so did Jerome. Jerome was upset that he was not the best swimmer, as he was designed to be and deliberately chose to walk into traffic. Jerome unable (or had no desire) to escape his own self-resentment, burns in it. Both Anton and Jerome suffer for defining themselves by their biology and the accompanied social expectations. Jerome passes Vincent his hair as the last expression of his time on Earth. Jerome will no longer grow any hair, a natural measure of time. He has ceased to exist in a physical sense. His mission is complete in giving enough of his valid biological matter for his life and Vincent's life across time. It is questionable what Vincent's goal in space is to do from a relational perspective.. He saved Anton from drowning twice and as lifted into space on the back of his own effort and everybody that let him pass through the system illegally. His father let him past the final checkpoint, Jerome gave his body, Anton gave him a gap in police authority, Irene did not expose his invalidity and the mission director pushed for the launch timing slot in the face of authoritative danger. What does Vincent give back for all this. A change in spirit from biological determinism to willpower over statistical fact. Not much in comparison to his launch. Musing aside, Vincent lives.
- throw0101a 7y ago
  > Vincent nearly fails the treadmill scene because he is on the edge of panicking under the stress of being revealed to be prime suspect in a murder case that might put him in jail wrongly and will blow his life's dream of getting to Titan. The impression that it was 'the stress of being found out' is a novel interpretation to me. I always thought it was about the fact that he has a 'garbage' heart and he's basically actually going at 200% while it appears on the outside as if he's only doing 60 bpm. Right at the end of his run his real BPM comes out because the recording from Jerome (Jude Law) reached its end and that's when he stops the exercise.
Juliate 7y ago
I didn't see it either that Vincent dies, but thank you, your perspective of it is really opening & interesting! Will re-watch differently the movie now! :)

keiferski 7y ago

I interpreted all of the things you listed as indications that statistics and scientific analysis have limitations and can't predict success or failure, not as indications that he would fail and die in the end. This is perhaps the main theme of the film: "There is no gene for the human spirit." You seem to have a thesis that the film is a tragedy and are working backwards from there. This goes against essentially everything in the film: its uplifting soundtrack, its message of overcoming the obstacles that society places in our way, and its argument that sometimes our true purpose is not to excel individually, but as a help and teammate to others. > But there's the rub, Vincent didn't become an astronaut, "Jerome" did. Even when Vincent succeeded, he didn't. Jerome is just his name and saying he didn't succeed because his achievements weren't listed under his own name seems a bit shallow, as if the only definition of success is fame. And again, a major theme of the story is that the two men are more capable of achieving great things together than apart. Remember that neither Vincent nor Eugene (Jerome) were in a good place prior to meeting each other. Jerome, the astronaut, is the successful identity created from the merging of both men, not simply one man using another's name.

dntbnmpls 7y ago
> I interpreted all of the things you listed as indications that statistics and scientific analysis have limitations and can't predict success or failure, not as indications that he would fail and die in the end. I did so for the "heart beats". But every other point has nothing to do with statistics or scientific analysis. I really can't say definitively that he died on his way to titan, but the evidence is fairly overwhelming. It wouldn't have been hinted at so much in the movie and the movie would not have ended with that quote otherwise. > And again, a major theme of the story is that the two men are more capable of achieving great things together than apart. That's a bit of a reach but you are entitled to the view. > You seem to have a thesis that the film is a tragedy and are working backwards from there. No. I watched Gattaca as a kid and loved it and saw it as an inspirational movie. Everything you believed, I believed. Then I got older and watched the movie a few more times. My thesis changed from inspirational to tragedy. As I said, my view of the movie changed. And I love the movie more now because it is richer, deeper and more consequential than a good simplistic feel good inspirational movie. > And remember that neither Vincent nor Eugene (Jerome) were in a good place prior to meeting each other. They weren't in a good place at the end either. Anyways, you are entitled to your view. I used to view it like you and I suspect it's most people's first impressions when they first watch the movie. But after repeated viewing, it's hard to watch someone burning himself to death and a man's looking into space and "going home" as inspirational. There are inspirational aspects to the film, but I don't think that's what the movie is really about. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
- npunt 7y ago
  Thank you both for this discussion, it was quite enjoyable to read!
- danpalmer 7y ago
  > But every other point has nothing to do with statistics or scientific analysis. I really can't say definitively that he died on his way to titan, but the evidence is fairly overwhelming. It wouldn't have been hinted at so much in the movie and the movie would not have ended with that quote otherwise. Do you have anything else that points to this? I've watched Gattaca 5-6 times I reckon, and never picked up on a hint that Vincent dies. For the heart beats, I've always interpreted it as the world won't give him a chance because _statistically_ he has a low likelihood of success compared to the "guaranteed" success of genetic engineering. To me Vincent and Eugene are a rejection of this – showing that humans aren't just statistics, and that the guarantees are no such thing. As for the "never saving anything for the way back" theme, I've always interpreted that as a part of this too. The idea that statistics aren't everything, going for the "guaranteed" outcome might limit your upside, etc. I'm pretty sure that "going home" isn't a reference to death. In the context of the few lines it's in, he's talking about how maybe he's not leaving because the atoms in our bodies come from stars. Finally, for me, there are too many references in Vincent's relationship with Irene that show an intent to return and an expectation that he will. Being gone for a year and that being "just one trip around the sun", lead the audience to see his trip as bittersweet because he's achieved his goal but will have to leave Irene temporarily, but ultimately a positive ending for him as he embarks on a new stage in his life. The gift of all the samples from Eugene, enough to last a lifetime, backs up this idea.

friendlybus 7y ago

You have to work pretty hard to take the perspective that Vincent dies. Vincent nearly fails the treadmill scene because he is on the edge of panicking under the stress of being revealed to be prime suspect in a murder case that might put him in jail wrongly and will blow his life's dream of getting to Titan. It doesn't matter if they check his ID at Titan, whatever that means. He commented he is outside the police's jurisdiction on the way to Titan, he will have achieved his goal regardless of his publicly known validity after docking at Titan. The line about going home is to illustrate that he is in fact, going home. He was always meant to be among the stars and found regular everyday life difficult. Through his teen years he studied astrophysics, he was an outcast. His home was, is and finally arrived among the stars. Vincent achieved exactly what he set out to do and so did Jerome. Jerome was upset that he was not the best swimmer, as he was designed to be and deliberately chose to walk into traffic. Jerome unable (or had no desire) to escape his own self-resentment, burns in it. Both Anton and Jerome suffer for defining themselves by their biology and the accompanied social expectations. Jerome passes Vincent his hair as the last expression of his time on Earth. Jerome will no longer grow any hair, a natural measure of time. He has ceased to exist in a physical sense. His mission is complete in giving enough of his valid biological matter for his life and Vincent's life across time. It is questionable what Vincent's goal in space is to do from a relational perspective.. He saved Anton from drowning twice and as lifted into space on the back of his own effort and everybody that let him pass through the system illegally. His father let him past the final checkpoint, Jerome gave his body, Anton gave him a gap in police authority, Irene did not expose his invalidity and the mission director pushed for the launch timing slot in the face of authoritative danger. What does Vincent give back for all this. A change in spirit from biological determinism to willpower over statistical fact. Not much in comparison to his launch. Musing aside, Vincent lives.

throw0101a 7y ago
> Vincent nearly fails the treadmill scene because he is on the edge of panicking under the stress of being revealed to be prime suspect in a murder case that might put him in jail wrongly and will blow his life's dream of getting to Titan. The impression that it was 'the stress of being found out' is a novel interpretation to me. I always thought it was about the fact that he has a 'garbage' heart and he's basically actually going at 200% while it appears on the outside as if he's only doing 60 bpm. Right at the end of his run his real BPM comes out because the recording from Jerome (Jude Law) reached its end and that's when he stops the exercise.

Juliate 7y ago

I didn't see it either that Vincent dies, but thank you, your perspective of it is really opening & interesting! Will re-watch differently the movie now! :)