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> security guards can have contractor status while obviously still being required to show up during their shift and not someone else's shift No, the IRS (assum

> security guards can have contractor status while obviously still being required to show up during their shift and not someone else's shift No, the IRS (assuming we're talking about the US) wouldn't allow it - that security guard would either need to be classified as an employee or provide their services to the customer as a corporate entity themselves. The guidelines[1] around this are very straightforward: "Under common-law rules, anyone who performs services for you is your employee if you can control what will be done and how it will be done. This is so even when you give the employee freedom of action. What matters is that you have the right to control the details of how the services are performed." 1. https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/independent-contractor-defined https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employe...

thaumasiotes 7y ago
> The guidelines around this are very straightforward And yet your quote doesn't even mention scheduling or the concept of time. > the IRS wouldn't allow that - that security guard would either need to be classified as an employee or provide services as a corporation This is not true. Please don't spread falsehoods in public like this. See https://coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2016/03/my-new-hero-and-how-the-department-of-labor-bought-me-drinks.html https://coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2016/03/my-new-hero-and-h... and the link through, https://www.cato.org/blog/four-more-courts-smack-down-obama-administration-workplace-law https://www.cato.org/blog/four-more-courts-smack-down-obama-... . The fact that a job needs to be performed at a particular time is not sufficient to prevent contractors from performing that job.
- culturestate 7y ago
  > And yet your quote doesn't even mention scheduling or the concept of time. If you drill down[1] on that page to "Behavioral Control," you'll find : "An employee is generally subject to the business’s instructions about when, where, and how to work. All of the following are examples of types of instructions about how to do work. - When and where to do the work." > This is not true. Please don't spread falsehoods in public like this. I'm not sure it's fair to classify a widely-accepted interpretation of the law as a "falsehood" but anyway, according to this[2] it seems that at least one court agrees that security guards are not independent contractors if they meet the above-linked criteria: "A Louisiana federal district court has granted a motion approving a confidential settlement in a collective action by New Orleans security guards under the federal Fair Labor Standards Act...They claimed that the company had complete control over how, when and where the guards performed their work; set the guards’ work schedules; and required the guards to wear uniforms with the company’s logo." 1. https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/behavioral-control https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employe... 2. https://independentcontractorcompliance.com/2017/11/06/october-2017-independent-contractor-misclassification-and-compliance-news-update/ https://independentcontractorcompliance.com/2017/11/06/octob...
leetcrew 7y ago
so if I pay someone to clean my house every Wednesday morning and tell them they can't use bleach, they're my employee?
- culturestate 7y ago
  If you're hiring them personally, no. This is only applicable when the hiring entity is a company. On the other hand, if you're wealthy and run your household via e.g. a family LLC which contracts that cleaner in a professional capacity, then - technically - yes. It's possible there's an exception for scenarios like this, but I'm not familiar with it. Disclaimer: I'm neither an accountant nor a tax attorney, but I've dealt with classification issues as both an employer and an indie consultant for years.
  - leetcrew 7y ago
    I guess that's a reasonable trade-off. if I want to protect my personal assets through an LLC, I have more obligations to the worker than some random Joe.
- logfromblammo 7y ago
  There is a fuzzy line there, between defining what the job is and how it should be done. If you say "sand the floor", a contractor that shows up with a power sander and sands the floor is still a contractor. When Mr. Miyagi kicks away the power sander, reveals two sanding blocks, and says, "No, like this," then Daniel-san is his employee. If the job is "clean my house on Wednesday no earlier than 8 am and finished by noon, without using bleach", as long as the only thing you're managing is to check the cleanliness of the house at 12:01 on Wednesday, that's still contracting. If you are then surprised that your cleaner subcontracted with the Cat in the Hat, and a Seussian steam-engine rolls in at 11:50 and back out at 11:59, leaving everything spotless and sparkling, you'd best just keep your mouth shut and enjoy the cleanliness. Because if you concern yourself with the who and the how, instead of just the what, where, and when, you should have hired an employee. If you can't hand off the job to another equally qualified person and still get the money yourself, that's not contracting. In the metaphor, the "apiarists" should probably have some contracts for honey with queen bees, who then manage their own hives in their own way to make delivery. But then those queens would have negotiating power, and the ability to switch apiarists to get the best price for their honey.

thaumasiotes 7y ago

> The guidelines around this are very straightforward And yet your quote doesn't even mention scheduling or the concept of time. > the IRS wouldn't allow that - that security guard would either need to be classified as an employee or provide services as a corporation This is not true. Please don't spread falsehoods in public like this. See https://coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2016/03/my-new-hero-and-how-the-department-of-labor-bought-me-drinks.html https://coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2016/03/my-new-hero-and-h... and the link through, https://www.cato.org/blog/four-more-courts-smack-down-obama-administration-workplace-law https://www.cato.org/blog/four-more-courts-smack-down-obama-... . The fact that a job needs to be performed at a particular time is not sufficient to prevent contractors from performing that job.

culturestate 7y ago
> And yet your quote doesn't even mention scheduling or the concept of time. If you drill down[1] on that page to "Behavioral Control," you'll find : "An employee is generally subject to the business’s instructions about when, where, and how to work. All of the following are examples of types of instructions about how to do work. - When and where to do the work." > This is not true. Please don't spread falsehoods in public like this. I'm not sure it's fair to classify a widely-accepted interpretation of the law as a "falsehood" but anyway, according to this[2] it seems that at least one court agrees that security guards are not independent contractors if they meet the above-linked criteria: "A Louisiana federal district court has granted a motion approving a confidential settlement in a collective action by New Orleans security guards under the federal Fair Labor Standards Act...They claimed that the company had complete control over how, when and where the guards performed their work; set the guards’ work schedules; and required the guards to wear uniforms with the company’s logo." 1. https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/behavioral-control https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employe... 2. https://independentcontractorcompliance.com/2017/11/06/october-2017-independent-contractor-misclassification-and-compliance-news-update/ https://independentcontractorcompliance.com/2017/11/06/octob...

leetcrew 7y ago

so if I pay someone to clean my house every Wednesday morning and tell them they can't use bleach, they're my employee?

culturestate 7y ago
If you're hiring them personally, no. This is only applicable when the hiring entity is a company. On the other hand, if you're wealthy and run your household via e.g. a family LLC which contracts that cleaner in a professional capacity, then - technically - yes. It's possible there's an exception for scenarios like this, but I'm not familiar with it. Disclaimer: I'm neither an accountant nor a tax attorney, but I've dealt with classification issues as both an employer and an indie consultant for years.
- leetcrew 7y ago
  I guess that's a reasonable trade-off. if I want to protect my personal assets through an LLC, I have more obligations to the worker than some random Joe.
logfromblammo 7y ago
There is a fuzzy line there, between defining what the job is and how it should be done. If you say "sand the floor", a contractor that shows up with a power sander and sands the floor is still a contractor. When Mr. Miyagi kicks away the power sander, reveals two sanding blocks, and says, "No, like this," then Daniel-san is his employee. If the job is "clean my house on Wednesday no earlier than 8 am and finished by noon, without using bleach", as long as the only thing you're managing is to check the cleanliness of the house at 12:01 on Wednesday, that's still contracting. If you are then surprised that your cleaner subcontracted with the Cat in the Hat, and a Seussian steam-engine rolls in at 11:50 and back out at 11:59, leaving everything spotless and sparkling, you'd best just keep your mouth shut and enjoy the cleanliness. Because if you concern yourself with the who and the how, instead of just the what, where, and when, you should have hired an employee. If you can't hand off the job to another equally qualified person and still get the money yourself, that's not contracting. In the metaphor, the "apiarists" should probably have some contracts for honey with queen bees, who then manage their own hives in their own way to make delivery. But then those queens would have negotiating power, and the ability to switch apiarists to get the best price for their honey.