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> The fatality rate of Italy is scary high. I read the reason is that they have such a high percentage of elderly. And has one of the lowest fertility rates [

> The fatality rate of Italy is scary high. I read the reason is that they have such a high percentage of elderly. And has one of the lowest fertility rates [1] in not just the EU, but in the World. Odd considering how just a generation ago having a large catholic, and poor, family was one of the most prominent qualities of Italian life. They keep trying to monetarily incentivize increasing birth-rates, much like Japan, but its not working. I often wondered what implications all of these austerity measures and under-employment in regards to population growth would look like in the West, and it seems to be following the Japanese model quite well. With that said, this is incredibly terrifying; the implications are looking dire. 1: https://www.thelocal.it/20160517/why-italys-facing-a-birth-rate-apocalypse https://www.thelocal.it/20160517/why-italys-facing-a-birth-r...

thefz 7y ago
>just a generation ago having a large catholic, and poor, family was one of the most prominent qualities of Italian life. I would not say so, no. That's speculation, this has not been true even for the south for a long time now. The only large, poor families you see are from immigrants nowadays.
- Melting_Harps 7y ago
  What is a long time? I lived and worked in the Central part in Emilia Romanga, an affluent albeit largely communist part of Italy, and I saw it amongst farming families, although most had since abandoned Catholicism. Many of the older children had left for Germany, Switzerland, Austria or Holland for work to send money back home. But, and this was just my personal experience since I was in the EU during the financial crisis; Italy, much like Spain and the other so called PIIGS, is a country plagued with underemployment and little to no social mobility for those under the age of mid 30s for the most part. And while I cannot attest to the number of their siblings or their religious beliefs, to say Italy itself is not is rather difficult to believe given my first hand experiences. I remember walking down the piazzas during the day to set up shop in the central parts of town, and the amount of large groups of 20 year olds (I was in my 20s back then too) were there day and night drinking in public was astonishing.
  - Tade0 7y ago
    I lived (part time) in Bologna 2015-2019 and my Italian friends there, who were mostly in their 30s, by and large were childless. I'm from Poland, where the fertility rate is also very low, but parents in their 20s are still not that uncommon in this country.
  - asjw 7y ago
    Not false, but incorrect. Emilia Romagna hasn't been communist since at least 2 decades. Emilia Romagna is largely an industrial compound with better average welfare state than the rest of Italy. At best I would say Italian-socialist with some communist folklore
  - toyg 7y ago
    Demographic trends in Italy bottomed out the year I was born (1979), and were then absolutely stuck until 2001, with no growth whatsoever. Without migration, the population would have long shrunk pretty dramatically. So your image of "large italian families" has not been mainstream for at least 40/50 years - two generations, like many (most?) other European countries. > the amount of large groups of 20 year olds (I was in my 20s back then too) were there day and night drinking in public was astonishing. 1) All the cities in Italy have large student populations because of well-respected universities. Bologna has one of the oldest universities in Europe, which is now massive. Chances are 95% of the kids you saw were students. 2) People in Italy like to hang out. Even if you have a job, anytime after 6pm is fair game for an aperitivo and whatever comes next, particularly when you are 20. Also, in smaller cities and towns, shops close at lunchtime and people go out to eat together, coming back around 2 or 3pm.
  - wrinklytidbits 7y ago
    An aside: why PIIGS? Couldn't they go by GIPSI instead?
    - samatman 7y ago
      This question answers itself, wouldn't you say? Edit: guess not, suppose I should spell it out: "Gypsy" is widely viewed as a slur, and thus is not appropriate as a cutesy spelling of a group of countries.
giomasce 7y ago
In which way would be Italy incentivizing births?
- Melting_Harps 7y ago
  > In which way would be Italy incentivizing births? Its literately the first line in the link: >> It’s been almost two years since Prime Minister Matteo Renzi introduced an €80-a-month ‘baby bonus' for low-and-medium income families. >>> But now Health Minister Beatrice Lorenzin wants to double that amount in a bid to stave off what she describes as a “catastrophic” decline in the country’s birth rate, as well as introduce higher payments for second and subsequent children.
  - alanfranz 7y ago
    Eur 80 / month is terribly low. I can pay a single day of babysitting with that money. But I don't receive it, it's for lower income families only. The sad truth is that Italy is hard for young people with the wrong degree (or without a degree). Postponing children is often a necessity, if you don't want to depend on your parents (who often own an house and have a nice pension). And so many skilled people just leave.
    - Melting_Harps 7y ago
      > The sad truth is that Italy is hard for young people with the wrong degree (or without a degree). Postponing children is often a necessity, if you don't want to depend on your parents (who often own an house and have a nice pension). And so many skilled people just leave. That's pretty much the millennial plight, and I agree; the sum is absurd when put in proper context, but that is what the Italian Government deems 'necessary' to pay just to keep the native population (targeted low income and likely low educated) churning out more numbers. Apparently the secretary general wanted to double that, and 2-3x it for subsequent children. The US probably subsidizes it even more with all the tax credits for having children, too. I'm not saying this to be supportive of the process, just restating my observations. Also, Italy has the easiest immigration laws of all of the EU to help boost its population numbers. Speaking of depending on their parents, I met a girl in Croatia visiting her Italian BF (she was from Washington) as she was thinking about staying long-term and living 'la dolce vita' a bit longer at her to be in-laws place when she realized all she had to do was marry her BF and would be granted complete citizenship. They thought about taking a year to just travel if they did it, I wonder if she went along with it?

thefz 7y ago

>just a generation ago having a large catholic, and poor, family was one of the most prominent qualities of Italian life. I would not say so, no. That's speculation, this has not been true even for the south for a long time now. The only large, poor families you see are from immigrants nowadays.

Melting_Harps 7y ago
What is a long time? I lived and worked in the Central part in Emilia Romanga, an affluent albeit largely communist part of Italy, and I saw it amongst farming families, although most had since abandoned Catholicism. Many of the older children had left for Germany, Switzerland, Austria or Holland for work to send money back home. But, and this was just my personal experience since I was in the EU during the financial crisis; Italy, much like Spain and the other so called PIIGS, is a country plagued with underemployment and little to no social mobility for those under the age of mid 30s for the most part. And while I cannot attest to the number of their siblings or their religious beliefs, to say Italy itself is not is rather difficult to believe given my first hand experiences. I remember walking down the piazzas during the day to set up shop in the central parts of town, and the amount of large groups of 20 year olds (I was in my 20s back then too) were there day and night drinking in public was astonishing.
- Tade0 7y ago
  I lived (part time) in Bologna 2015-2019 and my Italian friends there, who were mostly in their 30s, by and large were childless. I'm from Poland, where the fertility rate is also very low, but parents in their 20s are still not that uncommon in this country.
- asjw 7y ago
  Not false, but incorrect. Emilia Romagna hasn't been communist since at least 2 decades. Emilia Romagna is largely an industrial compound with better average welfare state than the rest of Italy. At best I would say Italian-socialist with some communist folklore
- toyg 7y ago
  Demographic trends in Italy bottomed out the year I was born (1979), and were then absolutely stuck until 2001, with no growth whatsoever. Without migration, the population would have long shrunk pretty dramatically. So your image of "large italian families" has not been mainstream for at least 40/50 years - two generations, like many (most?) other European countries. > the amount of large groups of 20 year olds (I was in my 20s back then too) were there day and night drinking in public was astonishing. 1) All the cities in Italy have large student populations because of well-respected universities. Bologna has one of the oldest universities in Europe, which is now massive. Chances are 95% of the kids you saw were students. 2) People in Italy like to hang out. Even if you have a job, anytime after 6pm is fair game for an aperitivo and whatever comes next, particularly when you are 20. Also, in smaller cities and towns, shops close at lunchtime and people go out to eat together, coming back around 2 or 3pm.
- wrinklytidbits 7y ago
  An aside: why PIIGS? Couldn't they go by GIPSI instead?
  - samatman 7y ago
    This question answers itself, wouldn't you say? Edit: guess not, suppose I should spell it out: "Gypsy" is widely viewed as a slur, and thus is not appropriate as a cutesy spelling of a group of countries.

giomasce 7y ago

In which way would be Italy incentivizing births?

Melting_Harps 7y ago
> In which way would be Italy incentivizing births? Its literately the first line in the link: >> It’s been almost two years since Prime Minister Matteo Renzi introduced an €80-a-month ‘baby bonus' for low-and-medium income families. >>> But now Health Minister Beatrice Lorenzin wants to double that amount in a bid to stave off what she describes as a “catastrophic” decline in the country’s birth rate, as well as introduce higher payments for second and subsequent children.
- alanfranz 7y ago
  Eur 80 / month is terribly low. I can pay a single day of babysitting with that money. But I don't receive it, it's for lower income families only. The sad truth is that Italy is hard for young people with the wrong degree (or without a degree). Postponing children is often a necessity, if you don't want to depend on your parents (who often own an house and have a nice pension). And so many skilled people just leave.
  - Melting_Harps 7y ago
    > The sad truth is that Italy is hard for young people with the wrong degree (or without a degree). Postponing children is often a necessity, if you don't want to depend on your parents (who often own an house and have a nice pension). And so many skilled people just leave. That's pretty much the millennial plight, and I agree; the sum is absurd when put in proper context, but that is what the Italian Government deems 'necessary' to pay just to keep the native population (targeted low income and likely low educated) churning out more numbers. Apparently the secretary general wanted to double that, and 2-3x it for subsequent children. The US probably subsidizes it even more with all the tax credits for having children, too. I'm not saying this to be supportive of the process, just restating my observations. Also, Italy has the easiest immigration laws of all of the EU to help boost its population numbers. Speaking of depending on their parents, I met a girl in Croatia visiting her Italian BF (she was from Washington) as she was thinking about staying long-term and living 'la dolce vita' a bit longer at her to be in-laws place when she realized all she had to do was marry her BF and would be granted complete citizenship. They thought about taking a year to just travel if they did it, I wonder if she went along with it?