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The question isn't whether N95 masks are/are not effective against transmission of the COVID-19 virus as a boolean yes/no answer. The question is who should be

The question isn't whether N95 masks are/are not effective against transmission of the COVID-19 virus as a boolean yes/no answer. The question is who should be supplied with the masks in a time of extreme shortage in a way that is most effective for the public at large, in terms of maximum effectiveness and lifesaving. It's all about ranking - what's the priority ordering for distribution? The CDC and other well-educated organizations believe they should go to hospitals and other health care providers first, infected people second, vulnerable populations third, and others last. Popular greed combined with ineffective controls are upsetting this logical ordering, and increase the overall risk for the population as a whole.

petre 7y ago
In France, president Macron signed an presidential order last week requisitioning surgical masks and their production for healthcare use. Why isn't this possible in the US? Japan's prime minister, Abe Shinzo, altered the law to be able to declare formal state of emergency. He came under fire for poorly handling the outbreak.
- otterley 7y ago
  The Department of Health and Human Services is doing just that: > Late Wednesday night, HHS announced it would be buying 500 million N95 respirators over the next 18 months for the stockpile, “part of a broader effort to maximize the availability of personal protective equipment for health care workers who are on the front lines” fighting spread of the virus... https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/03/05/washington-state-asked-us-stockpile-coronavirus-masks-response-raises-concerns/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/03/05/washington-...
- s1artibartfast 7y ago
  The whole topic is a red herring. The production is going to the hospitals and the government also has a stockpile, which they are partially distributing. http://www.capradio.org/articles/2020/03/03/california-to-dispense-21-million-masks-to-help-hospitals-combat-covid-19/ http://www.capradio.org/articles/2020/03/03/california-to-di... http://www.capradio.org/articles/2020/03/03/california-to-dispense-21-million-masks-to-help-hospitals-combat-covid-19/ http://www.capradio.org/articles/2020/03/03/california-to-di...
exolymph 7y ago
> The CDC and other well-educated organizations believe they should go to hospitals and other health care providers first, infected people second, vulnerable populations third, and others last. > Popular greed combined with ineffective controls are upsetting this logical ordering, and increase the overall risk for the population as a whole. Look, it's not my fault that gov't didn't prepare for this situation — high demand for masks — and that I did.
- otterley 7y ago
  It's fine to be prepared, but if your local hospital rings you up and asks you for your stash, are you going to refuse?
  - waterhouse 7y ago
    Well, how much will they pay you for it? Seriously. If they pay something good for it, then that gives a decent incentive for forward-thinking people to do some stockpiling for situations like this. If they don't, and if they go as far as trying to punish "price gouging", then there is no such incentive beyond stockpiling for personal use or for sale on the black market.
    - otterley 7y ago
      Let us assume for the sake of argument, up to the manufacturer's suggested retail price. They're asking because they believe people will probably unnecessarily die if they don't get more right away.
      - waterhouse 7y ago
        Well, if people's lives are at stake, why not pay more? ("Why not accept less?" It's the hospital's job to care for its patients—not to mention its workers.) I suspect the cost of one of the healthcare workers getting badly sick one week earlier is worth many times the cost of one box of masks. If you offer the retail price, then that effectively covers the case of people who accidentally bought too much and would have otherwise wanted to return the masks (but were too lazy until now?). It doesn't incentivize anyone to make any forward-thinking stockpiles; their net profit would be zero, minus the transaction and storage costs.
zachguo 7y ago
Yup, it's not about the effectiveness of the masks, it's simply because the US doesn't have enough stockpile and capacity to produce them. All east Asian countries recommend citizens to wear masks.
PeterisP 7y ago
If we're talking about the media claims that the masks are ineffective, then it's completely orthogonal to the issue of who should be supplied with the masks. If CDC and other well-educated organizations believe they should go to hospitals and other health care providers first, infected people second, vulnerable populations third, and others last, that still does not excuse lying to the public, as that erodes trust in these organizations and ensures that all other information (e.g. regarding quarantines) would be distrusted.
- otterley 7y ago
  Which historically-trusted media companies are claiming that the masks are "ineffective"? At the end of the day, it's a red herring, but I'm still curious.
  - PeterisP 7y ago
    We can start with US Surgeon General (https://twitter.com/Surgeon_General/status/1233725785283932160 https://twitter.com/Surgeon_General/status/12337257852839321... - "They are NOT effective in preventing general public from catching #Coronavirus") And off the first page of duckduckgo: https://www.businessinsider.com/wuhan-coronavirus-face-masks-not-entirely-effective-2020-1?op=1 https://www.businessinsider.com/wuhan-coronavirus-face-masks... https://time.com/5794729/coronavirus-face-masks/ https://time.com/5794729/coronavirus-face-masks/ https://nationalpost.com/news/world/how-to-avoid-coronavirus-on-flights-forget-masks-says-top-airline-doctor https://nationalpost.com/news/world/how-to-avoid-coronavirus... But yes, many media companies are giving an appropriate message of either why there's little reason to wear a mask right now (little chance of random community spread today) or about the allocation of scarce masks to people who need them more.
    - s1artibartfast 7y ago
      prevention /= harm reduction. condoms aren't 100% effective, but still worth using.
- Barrin92 7y ago

petre 7y ago

In France, president Macron signed an presidential order last week requisitioning surgical masks and their production for healthcare use. Why isn't this possible in the US? Japan's prime minister, Abe Shinzo, altered the law to be able to declare formal state of emergency. He came under fire for poorly handling the outbreak.

otterley 7y ago
The Department of Health and Human Services is doing just that: > Late Wednesday night, HHS announced it would be buying 500 million N95 respirators over the next 18 months for the stockpile, “part of a broader effort to maximize the availability of personal protective equipment for health care workers who are on the front lines” fighting spread of the virus... https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/03/05/washington-state-asked-us-stockpile-coronavirus-masks-response-raises-concerns/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/03/05/washington-...
s1artibartfast 7y ago
The whole topic is a red herring. The production is going to the hospitals and the government also has a stockpile, which they are partially distributing. http://www.capradio.org/articles/2020/03/03/california-to-dispense-21-million-masks-to-help-hospitals-combat-covid-19/ http://www.capradio.org/articles/2020/03/03/california-to-di... http://www.capradio.org/articles/2020/03/03/california-to-dispense-21-million-masks-to-help-hospitals-combat-covid-19/ http://www.capradio.org/articles/2020/03/03/california-to-di...

exolymph 7y ago

> The CDC and other well-educated organizations believe they should go to hospitals and other health care providers first, infected people second, vulnerable populations third, and others last. > Popular greed combined with ineffective controls are upsetting this logical ordering, and increase the overall risk for the population as a whole. Look, it's not my fault that gov't didn't prepare for this situation — high demand for masks — and that I did.

otterley 7y ago
It's fine to be prepared, but if your local hospital rings you up and asks you for your stash, are you going to refuse?
- waterhouse 7y ago
  Well, how much will they pay you for it? Seriously. If they pay something good for it, then that gives a decent incentive for forward-thinking people to do some stockpiling for situations like this. If they don't, and if they go as far as trying to punish "price gouging", then there is no such incentive beyond stockpiling for personal use or for sale on the black market.
  - otterley 7y ago
    Let us assume for the sake of argument, up to the manufacturer's suggested retail price. They're asking because they believe people will probably unnecessarily die if they don't get more right away.
    - waterhouse 7y ago
      Well, if people's lives are at stake, why not pay more? ("Why not accept less?" It's the hospital's job to care for its patients—not to mention its workers.) I suspect the cost of one of the healthcare workers getting badly sick one week earlier is worth many times the cost of one box of masks. If you offer the retail price, then that effectively covers the case of people who accidentally bought too much and would have otherwise wanted to return the masks (but were too lazy until now?). It doesn't incentivize anyone to make any forward-thinking stockpiles; their net profit would be zero, minus the transaction and storage costs.

zachguo 7y ago

Yup, it's not about the effectiveness of the masks, it's simply because the US doesn't have enough stockpile and capacity to produce them. All east Asian countries recommend citizens to wear masks.

PeterisP 7y ago

If we're talking about the media claims that the masks are ineffective, then it's completely orthogonal to the issue of who should be supplied with the masks. If CDC and other well-educated organizations believe they should go to hospitals and other health care providers first, infected people second, vulnerable populations third, and others last, that still does not excuse lying to the public, as that erodes trust in these organizations and ensures that all other information (e.g. regarding quarantines) would be distrusted.

otterley 7y ago
Which historically-trusted media companies are claiming that the masks are "ineffective"? At the end of the day, it's a red herring, but I'm still curious.
- PeterisP 7y ago
  We can start with US Surgeon General (https://twitter.com/Surgeon_General/status/1233725785283932160 https://twitter.com/Surgeon_General/status/12337257852839321... - "They are NOT effective in preventing general public from catching #Coronavirus") And off the first page of duckduckgo: https://www.businessinsider.com/wuhan-coronavirus-face-masks-not-entirely-effective-2020-1?op=1 https://www.businessinsider.com/wuhan-coronavirus-face-masks... https://time.com/5794729/coronavirus-face-masks/ https://time.com/5794729/coronavirus-face-masks/ https://nationalpost.com/news/world/how-to-avoid-coronavirus-on-flights-forget-masks-says-top-airline-doctor https://nationalpost.com/news/world/how-to-avoid-coronavirus... But yes, many media companies are giving an appropriate message of either why there's little reason to wear a mask right now (little chance of random community spread today) or about the allocation of scarce masks to people who need them more.
  - s1artibartfast 7y ago
    prevention /= harm reduction. condoms aren't 100% effective, but still worth using.
Barrin92 7y ago