6 ms·

It's been a slow process, and hence perhaps underappreciated, but it's very gratifying that over the last 15 years patent-unencumbered media codecs have won. Th

by roca 7y ago

It's been a slow process, and hence perhaps underappreciated, but it's very gratifying that over the last 15 years patent-unencumbered media codecs have won. The companies that contributed to this --- Google, Mozilla, Cisco, and others --- and especially Xiph that got the ball rolling --- deserve a lot of credit.

greggman3 7y ago
They have? Are we talking images only because in video mp4 and .h264 and .h265 are pretty much it. Apple/Safari still doesn't support vp8/vp9/webm/av1 for video or ogg for audio
- jasondclinton 7y ago
  Mobile Safari is about 20-35% of all mobile web traffic. Desktop Safari is about 5-15% of all desktop web traffic. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers
- est31 7y ago
  > Are we talking images only because in video mp4 and .h264 and .h265 are pretty much it. Apple/Safari still doesn't support vp8/vp9/webm/av1 for video or ogg for audio h265 is doomed because of the multiple patent pools that have formed and the extreme price hikes compared to h264. It's a risky technology to build on. That's the best ad that AV1 can have, and many members joined the alliance for open media for that reason after it became clear that the patent pool situation wouldn't resolve. As for your browser support question, yes, Safari has traditionally been anti-ogg, but a few years ago Apple joined the alliance for open media and added opus support to their browsers (although only in the caf container, for some weird unexplainable reason). Open codecs have won in the lossless audio domain (flac). There is no reason they can't win in the lossy video and lossy audio domains too (not sure about lossless videos but FFV1 seems to have lots of support by archivists who want open technology).
  - p0nce 7y ago
    > h265 is doomed I strongly recommend to see this video: "The state of advanced codecs; separating hype from reality" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgE8-4rcXl0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgE8-4rcXl0
    - akiselev 7y ago
      Care to summarize the relevance of that video to the topic at hand?
      - ksec 7y ago
        If your world of Video = Youtube. Then HEVC failed. If your world of Video = Every Video usage on the planet Earth. Then HEVC isn't doing so bad, every shipping TV has had HEVC decode, most ( if not all ) Smartphone, PC, Tablet has hardware Decoder shipped.
        BurningCycles 7y ago
        >Then HEVC isn't doing so bad Sure, but it was massively pushed as the successor of h264 as the new de facto video codec standard, after almost a decade in use it has clearly failed in that respect. IMO this codec generation saw no winner, instead h264 remains the undisputed king, the next battle for the crown will likely be between AV2 (or whatever it ends up being called) and VVC (Versatile Video Coding).
        ksec 7y ago
        >instead h264 remains the undisputed king Yes. And I think there is something more than licensing. x264 managed to push H.264 way beyond what anyone could imagine. It wasn't until 2017/2018 did x265 or in fact any commercial H.265 encoder had clear advantage over x264 at 8 / 10Mbps+ bitrate. For HEVC 4K it was obvious, but 4K content never really took off, and h.264 for 1080P was good enough at those bitrate. I dont know much about AV2, but VVC is looking very promising. I just hope they dont mess this up.
- gsich 7y ago
  Niche browser.
threeseed 7y ago
H.264/H.265 is the standard for video today. Not sure where you're getting that idea that open codecs have won.
- jasondclinton 7y ago
  It depends on what you are measuring. If we go purely by web traffic volume, then whatever YouTube is doing is what's "won". AFAICT, that's VP9 to everything that supports it which seems to be all desktops and new Androids but not Apple devices. Android devices of the previous generation fallback to VP8 where there's hardware decode support.
  - threeseed 7y ago
    Far more than just outbound web traffic. Cable, broadcast TV, live streaming, web conferencing, personal videos, blogging etc. Most of those will be using H.264/5.
- bawolff 7y ago
  Personally i dont think that they have "won". However the mere fact they have are seriously considered as an option, is a major victory. 10 years ago only the hard core capital F Free Software people used them or even considered them
- tagrun 7y ago
  I wouldn't lump them together. There is a chasm between the adoption numbers for H.264 and H.265, HEVC failed gain the momentum AVC did --which is exactly the point GP is making. MPEG-LA is indeed well connected to lobbying parties and Hollywood, which established HEVC as the codec for 4K Blu-ray discs. (I personally don't remember the last time I borrowed an optical disc to watch a movie. I actually don't even own any type of optical disc driver anymore!). However, VP9 dominates over HEVC in streamed media.
herf 7y ago
Isn't HEIC (iPhone and Android P) patent-encumbered by HEVC? $0.20/device, but your photos are probably using it now.
- BurningCycles 7y ago
  Do new Android phones save photos in HEIC format ?
  - mceachen 7y ago
    The Samsung 10 series will let you save photos as HEIC.
ksec 7y ago
>but it's very gratifying that over the last 15 years patent-unencumbered media codecs have won. Am I the only one who is not reading this sentence correctly. It seems to suggest patent unencumbered codec have won for the past 15 years. Regardless of that, AVIF is not patent unencumbered, it is just royalty free.
- roca 7y ago
  That is a fair clarification, thanks.

by roca 7y ago

greggman3 7y ago

They have? Are we talking images only because in video mp4 and .h264 and .h265 are pretty much it. Apple/Safari still doesn't support vp8/vp9/webm/av1 for video or ogg for audio

jasondclinton 7y ago
Mobile Safari is about 20-35% of all mobile web traffic. Desktop Safari is about 5-15% of all desktop web traffic. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers
est31 7y ago
> Are we talking images only because in video mp4 and .h264 and .h265 are pretty much it. Apple/Safari still doesn't support vp8/vp9/webm/av1 for video or ogg for audio h265 is doomed because of the multiple patent pools that have formed and the extreme price hikes compared to h264. It's a risky technology to build on. That's the best ad that AV1 can have, and many members joined the alliance for open media for that reason after it became clear that the patent pool situation wouldn't resolve. As for your browser support question, yes, Safari has traditionally been anti-ogg, but a few years ago Apple joined the alliance for open media and added opus support to their browsers (although only in the caf container, for some weird unexplainable reason). Open codecs have won in the lossless audio domain (flac). There is no reason they can't win in the lossy video and lossy audio domains too (not sure about lossless videos but FFV1 seems to have lots of support by archivists who want open technology).
- p0nce 7y ago
  > h265 is doomed I strongly recommend to see this video: "The state of advanced codecs; separating hype from reality" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgE8-4rcXl0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgE8-4rcXl0
  - akiselev 7y ago
    Care to summarize the relevance of that video to the topic at hand?
    - ksec 7y ago
      If your world of Video = Youtube. Then HEVC failed. If your world of Video = Every Video usage on the planet Earth. Then HEVC isn't doing so bad, every shipping TV has had HEVC decode, most ( if not all ) Smartphone, PC, Tablet has hardware Decoder shipped.
      - BurningCycles 7y ago
        >Then HEVC isn't doing so bad Sure, but it was massively pushed as the successor of h264 as the new de facto video codec standard, after almost a decade in use it has clearly failed in that respect. IMO this codec generation saw no winner, instead h264 remains the undisputed king, the next battle for the crown will likely be between AV2 (or whatever it ends up being called) and VVC (Versatile Video Coding).
        ksec 7y ago
        >instead h264 remains the undisputed king Yes. And I think there is something more than licensing. x264 managed to push H.264 way beyond what anyone could imagine. It wasn't until 2017/2018 did x265 or in fact any commercial H.265 encoder had clear advantage over x264 at 8 / 10Mbps+ bitrate. For HEVC 4K it was obvious, but 4K content never really took off, and h.264 for 1080P was good enough at those bitrate. I dont know much about AV2, but VVC is looking very promising. I just hope they dont mess this up.
gsich 7y ago
Niche browser.

threeseed 7y ago

H.264/H.265 is the standard for video today. Not sure where you're getting that idea that open codecs have won.

jasondclinton 7y ago
It depends on what you are measuring. If we go purely by web traffic volume, then whatever YouTube is doing is what's "won". AFAICT, that's VP9 to everything that supports it which seems to be all desktops and new Androids but not Apple devices. Android devices of the previous generation fallback to VP8 where there's hardware decode support.
- threeseed 7y ago
  Far more than just outbound web traffic. Cable, broadcast TV, live streaming, web conferencing, personal videos, blogging etc. Most of those will be using H.264/5.
bawolff 7y ago
Personally i dont think that they have "won". However the mere fact they have are seriously considered as an option, is a major victory. 10 years ago only the hard core capital F Free Software people used them or even considered them
tagrun 7y ago
I wouldn't lump them together. There is a chasm between the adoption numbers for H.264 and H.265, HEVC failed gain the momentum AVC did --which is exactly the point GP is making. MPEG-LA is indeed well connected to lobbying parties and Hollywood, which established HEVC as the codec for 4K Blu-ray discs. (I personally don't remember the last time I borrowed an optical disc to watch a movie. I actually don't even own any type of optical disc driver anymore!). However, VP9 dominates over HEVC in streamed media.

herf 7y ago

Isn't HEIC (iPhone and Android P) patent-encumbered by HEVC? $0.20/device, but your photos are probably using it now.

BurningCycles 7y ago
Do new Android phones save photos in HEIC format ?
- mceachen 7y ago
  The Samsung 10 series will let you save photos as HEIC.

ksec 7y ago

>but it's very gratifying that over the last 15 years patent-unencumbered media codecs have won. Am I the only one who is not reading this sentence correctly. It seems to suggest patent unencumbered codec have won for the past 15 years. Regardless of that, AVIF is not patent unencumbered, it is just royalty free.

roca 7y ago
That is a fair clarification, thanks.