5 ms·

Pornhub should be required to prevent illegal content (specifically in this case child porn) from being hosted on the site at all. They should be held responsib

Pornhub should be required to prevent illegal content (specifically in this case child porn) from being hosted on the site at all. They should be held responsible for content they make available. Presumably this would require human intervention to greenlight the video once all the necessary verification has been sought. All platforms should be held to this standard frankly. I don't understand how we've gotten to the point where it is acceptable for anything less.

jedberg 7y ago
Should Hacker News be responsible for stopping you and everyone else from posting possibly illegal material? The same law that protects HN protects PornHub.
- DanBC 7y ago
  In most of the world people have no problem with holding the site responsible for hosting images of child sexual abuse, even if those images were posted by users.
  - vorpalhex 7y ago
    And in most of the world, criticizing a leader may have criminal offenses associated. There's a reason the US is unique and that most of these companies are founded there.
    - ocdtrekkie 7y ago
      > There's a reason the US is unique and that most of these companies are founded there. The fact that businesses tend to be founded in the country with the least regulation and protection for consumers and public interest is probably not something we should really be proud of. It's kinda the worst part of unchecked capitalism. Arizona proudly bragged about being the least hindrance to self-driving car testing in their state. Which is why businesses moved their self-driving operations there, an honor they can brag about. And now they also get the dubious honor of being the first to have a resident murdered by a corporation's self-driving car program.
- ocdtrekkie 7y ago
  HN has competent moderators that do a reasonable job removing illegal or harmful content. (Hi dang <3) Section 230 protects bad actors, not good ones. Platforms that invoke Section 230 as a defensive measure are generally either refusing to moderate, or entrusting moderation entirely to algorithms, claiming they're "too big" to moderate their content.
  - vorpalhex 7y ago
    > Section 230 protects bad actors, not good ones Section 230 is why you can comment here without dang having to approve every comment you make first. It's why Facebook and Twitter and Reddit and HN can exist. It protects all actors.
    - ocdtrekkie 7y ago
      This is completely untrue. Legal cases already have the concept of intent and liability. Section 230 provides blanket immunity for abuses that would otherwise be clearly defined as criminally negligent or willful behavior. For example, without Section 230, one could define dang removing a harmful post shortly after it was flagged (usually within hours, I imagine) as best effort for a two-man moderation team, and find that PornHub, one of the most valuable web properties in the world with a significant amount of manpower, taking several weeks to take down a child porn video criminally negligent, and holding the company responsible. (Arguably, SESTA-FOSTA already enables the latter, as Section 230 no longer applies to sexual exploitation of children.)
      - vorpalhex 7y ago
        > Section 230 provides blanket immunity for abuses Uh, have you actually tried reading Section 230? > No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider.
- Spare_account 7y ago
  Why not? Make them all responsible for curating the content they provide. Yes, that sounds fine. Maybe I'm naive to the law you mention. What law applies here that protects HN and Pornhub?
  - jedberg 7y ago
    > Why not? Make them all responsible for curating the content they provide. Yes, that sounds fine. If that were the case, you'd have to wait for a moderator to approve this post. This site probably just wouldn't exist, because it would be far too hard for the moderators to do that. > Maybe I'm naive to the law you mention. What law applies here that protects HN and Pornhub? DMCA Safe Harbor and Section 230.
    - Spare_account 7y ago
      Thank you. I'm in the UK, I'll have to find out if we have similar rules here but broadly speaking my initial reaction is that this legislation is a bad thing and platforms should all be considered publishers and required to moderate the content they make available.
      - jedberg 7y ago
        In the UK you guys have very interesting laws around this stuff. Your "tabloid culture" as it is exists primarily because of the protections your publishers get, but at the same time, people in the UK have much greater recourse against such things if they choose to invoke it. Classic example, in the UK you can have bad feedback about you removed from eBay because your laws about libel and slander are so favorable to the target of those attacks, to the point where even truthful information may not be allowed.
Tagbert 7y ago
How are they supposed to prevent these videos from being posted? The ones doing the posting are anonymous users, not port hub. Any site that has user submitted content faces this issue. It is generally in feasible for them to manually review every submission so they are dependent on other users reporting the violations. On the other hand, they should be very responsive when content is reported and at least block it until they can do some review. Waiting for an extended period of time is unacceptable.
- Spare_account 7y ago
  So let's change the law and force them to moderate the content before it's published. They'll have to slow the rate of new content being made available until their moderators can keep up.
- ocdtrekkie 7y ago
  If it's infeasible for the business to operate ethically, the business shouldn't operate. But the resolution isn't impossible, especially for a company of MindGeek's scale: Remove anonymous uploads entirely. Require channels establish their and their performers legal identity (which for monetization, many have to do anyways), and require metadata on all performers in any video (presumably allowing them to publicly display as anonymous or with a stage name as adequate), and verify the consent of those performers to be posted on that channel.
- Seenso 7y ago
  > It is generally [infeasible] for them to manually review every submission so they are dependent on other users reporting the violations. It may be economically infeasible for them to moderate, but economics is not a "get out of ethics free" card. IMHO, we've gotten too comfortable with tech companies passing the buck on negative externalities that they create or profit from. We wouldn't accept a "can't do it, not economically feasible" answer from an industrial chemicals company that's been asked to stop polluting a river, and I don't see why PornHub should be any different.

jedberg 7y ago

Should Hacker News be responsible for stopping you and everyone else from posting possibly illegal material? The same law that protects HN protects PornHub.

DanBC 7y ago
In most of the world people have no problem with holding the site responsible for hosting images of child sexual abuse, even if those images were posted by users.
- vorpalhex 7y ago
  And in most of the world, criticizing a leader may have criminal offenses associated. There's a reason the US is unique and that most of these companies are founded there.
  - ocdtrekkie 7y ago
    > There's a reason the US is unique and that most of these companies are founded there. The fact that businesses tend to be founded in the country with the least regulation and protection for consumers and public interest is probably not something we should really be proud of. It's kinda the worst part of unchecked capitalism. Arizona proudly bragged about being the least hindrance to self-driving car testing in their state. Which is why businesses moved their self-driving operations there, an honor they can brag about. And now they also get the dubious honor of being the first to have a resident murdered by a corporation's self-driving car program.
ocdtrekkie 7y ago
HN has competent moderators that do a reasonable job removing illegal or harmful content. (Hi dang <3) Section 230 protects bad actors, not good ones. Platforms that invoke Section 230 as a defensive measure are generally either refusing to moderate, or entrusting moderation entirely to algorithms, claiming they're "too big" to moderate their content.
- vorpalhex 7y ago
  > Section 230 protects bad actors, not good ones Section 230 is why you can comment here without dang having to approve every comment you make first. It's why Facebook and Twitter and Reddit and HN can exist. It protects all actors.
  - ocdtrekkie 7y ago
    This is completely untrue. Legal cases already have the concept of intent and liability. Section 230 provides blanket immunity for abuses that would otherwise be clearly defined as criminally negligent or willful behavior. For example, without Section 230, one could define dang removing a harmful post shortly after it was flagged (usually within hours, I imagine) as best effort for a two-man moderation team, and find that PornHub, one of the most valuable web properties in the world with a significant amount of manpower, taking several weeks to take down a child porn video criminally negligent, and holding the company responsible. (Arguably, SESTA-FOSTA already enables the latter, as Section 230 no longer applies to sexual exploitation of children.)
    - vorpalhex 7y ago
      > Section 230 provides blanket immunity for abuses Uh, have you actually tried reading Section 230? > No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider.
Spare_account 7y ago
Why not? Make them all responsible for curating the content they provide. Yes, that sounds fine. Maybe I'm naive to the law you mention. What law applies here that protects HN and Pornhub?
- jedberg 7y ago
  > Why not? Make them all responsible for curating the content they provide. Yes, that sounds fine. If that were the case, you'd have to wait for a moderator to approve this post. This site probably just wouldn't exist, because it would be far too hard for the moderators to do that. > Maybe I'm naive to the law you mention. What law applies here that protects HN and Pornhub? DMCA Safe Harbor and Section 230.
  - Spare_account 7y ago
    Thank you. I'm in the UK, I'll have to find out if we have similar rules here but broadly speaking my initial reaction is that this legislation is a bad thing and platforms should all be considered publishers and required to moderate the content they make available.
    - jedberg 7y ago
      In the UK you guys have very interesting laws around this stuff. Your "tabloid culture" as it is exists primarily because of the protections your publishers get, but at the same time, people in the UK have much greater recourse against such things if they choose to invoke it. Classic example, in the UK you can have bad feedback about you removed from eBay because your laws about libel and slander are so favorable to the target of those attacks, to the point where even truthful information may not be allowed.

Tagbert 7y ago

How are they supposed to prevent these videos from being posted? The ones doing the posting are anonymous users, not port hub. Any site that has user submitted content faces this issue. It is generally in feasible for them to manually review every submission so they are dependent on other users reporting the violations. On the other hand, they should be very responsive when content is reported and at least block it until they can do some review. Waiting for an extended period of time is unacceptable.

Spare_account 7y ago
So let's change the law and force them to moderate the content before it's published. They'll have to slow the rate of new content being made available until their moderators can keep up.
ocdtrekkie 7y ago
If it's infeasible for the business to operate ethically, the business shouldn't operate. But the resolution isn't impossible, especially for a company of MindGeek's scale: Remove anonymous uploads entirely. Require channels establish their and their performers legal identity (which for monetization, many have to do anyways), and require metadata on all performers in any video (presumably allowing them to publicly display as anonymous or with a stage name as adequate), and verify the consent of those performers to be posted on that channel.
Seenso 7y ago
> It is generally [infeasible] for them to manually review every submission so they are dependent on other users reporting the violations. It may be economically infeasible for them to moderate, but economics is not a "get out of ethics free" card. IMHO, we've gotten too comfortable with tech companies passing the buck on negative externalities that they create or profit from. We wouldn't accept a "can't do it, not economically feasible" answer from an industrial chemicals company that's been asked to stop polluting a river, and I don't see why PornHub should be any different.