4 ms·

I'm not arguing that Clojure is as widely used as Java or Python, which are two most popular languages in the world. I'm saying that it's a ridiculous bar to se

I'm not arguing that Clojure is as widely used as Java or Python, which are two most popular languages in the world. I'm saying that it's a ridiculous bar to set for calling something mainstream. However, there are some other metrics we can look at. For example, if we look at downloads for popular libraries, we can see that Ring's been downloaded 9,058,741 times, and obviously there are repeat downloads for the same users, but even accounting for that it indicates a much bigger user base than you're suggesting. https://clojars.org/ring/ring-core https://clojars.org/ring/ring-core Other data points would be commercial tooling like Cursive and commercial funding for projects with organizations like Clojurists Together indicates that there is a critical mass of commercial users who are willing to fund projects https://lambdaisland.com/blog/2020-02-03-open-collective-lambda-island-open-source https://lambdaisland.com/blog/2020-02-03-open-collective-lam... https://www.clojuriststogether.org/ https://www.clojuriststogether.org/ Finally, Clojure usage is growing for new projects both in enterprise and government sectors in countries like Finalnd https://twitter.com/autiomaa/status/1235944730267193345 https://twitter.com/autiomaa/status/1235944730267193345 https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1nCZ-GmWLcH8Dcz3XJHY00xbm42V9-rBL9n2PGkKYp0k/edit?folder=0AM-3FGnMl8asUk9PVA https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1nCZ-GmWLcH8Dcz3XJHY0... This is a very different picture from a tiny isolated community of a few thousand developers that you seem to be painting.

lispm 7y ago
> 9,058,741 times, This says nothing about the number of human users. > This is a very different picture from a tiny isolated community of a few thousand developers that you seem to be painting. https://opencollective.com/lambda-island#section-contributors https://opencollective.com/lambda-island#section-contributor... They have 13 contributors.
- yogthos 7y ago
  >This says nothing about the number of human users. It obviously does because people are using these libraries in their projects. As I noted, it's an indirect measure, but it still gives an idea of the usage. And Open Collective was just announced last month, so not sure what point you were trying to make there. Wonder why you didn't mention anything about Clojurists Together, doesn't fit your narrative? https://www.clojuriststogether.org/members/ https://www.clojuriststogether.org/members/
  - lispm 7y ago
    > It obviously does because people are using these libraries in their projects. Obviously it says nothing about the number. If we look at the number of downloads of the current version, it's ~40000. Now many systems may download it multiple times. So the number is not an indicator for a large user community. > Wonder why you didn't mention anything about Clojurists Together, doesn't fit your narrative? https://www.clojuriststogether.org/members/ https://www.clojuriststogether.org/members/ It 'fits my narrative' well. Just count the number of the members. Don't get me wrong, that's all fine and useful in a small community, but to claim a handful of companies and a few hundred people is an indicator of a mainstream popularity is just massive overselling and looks 'silly' (to quote you again, sorry).
    - yogthos 7y ago
      If commercial usage of the language by companies big and small around the world along with funding of the ecosystem is not an indication of mainstream usage, then I guess we'll have to disagree on what constitutes mainstream.
      - lispm 7y ago
        Right, a few users don't make something mainstream. Big companies have thousands of developers - even non IT companies - that someone inside some big company uses a programming language doesn't make it an indicator for widespread (most people use something -> mainstream) usage. Mainstream: large relative and absolute numbers of users. For example the Porsche Taycan (-> Microsoft) is not a mainstream car, even though Bill Gates has one and Porsche is an incredible profitable company. https://www.economist.com/business/2019/09/12/porsche-is-small-but-highly-lucrative https://www.economist.com/business/2019/09/12/porsche-is-sma...
        yogthos 7y ago
        well fair enough then
Scarbutt 7y ago
9 millions downloads in 10 years, expressjs has 12 millions download per week (if you want to go by that metric).
- yogthos 7y ago
  My whole point is that languages like like Js or Java are not a good metric, and you don't have to be as popular as the top handful of languages to be mainstream.
  - lispm 7y ago
    > you don't have to be as popular as the top handful of languages to be mainstream. I thought being in the top is the definition of 'mainstream': 'most people use it, know it, learn it, ...'.
    - yogthos 7y ago
      Mainstream is typically taken to be known and widely used which Clojure is. You seem to have a personal much more restrictive definition which only includes the top few languages for reasons unstated.
      - lispm 7y ago
        > Mainstream is typically taken to be known and widely used which Clojure is. But Clojure is neither widely known nor widely used. The last Clojure survey was done by just 2500 people. > You seem to have a personal much more restrictive definition which only includes the top few languages for reasons unstated. The top ten languages are all two orders of magnitude more used than Clojure. They are mainstream. Literally they have millions of users. That's the definition of mainstream. Mainstream pop: the music most people hear and which dominates the charts. No one would claim that free jazz is mainstream, even though it has some stable fan group.
        yogthos 7y ago

lispm 7y ago

> 9,058,741 times, This says nothing about the number of human users. > This is a very different picture from a tiny isolated community of a few thousand developers that you seem to be painting. https://opencollective.com/lambda-island#section-contributors https://opencollective.com/lambda-island#section-contributor... They have 13 contributors.

yogthos 7y ago
>This says nothing about the number of human users. It obviously does because people are using these libraries in their projects. As I noted, it's an indirect measure, but it still gives an idea of the usage. And Open Collective was just announced last month, so not sure what point you were trying to make there. Wonder why you didn't mention anything about Clojurists Together, doesn't fit your narrative? https://www.clojuriststogether.org/members/ https://www.clojuriststogether.org/members/
- lispm 7y ago
  > It obviously does because people are using these libraries in their projects. Obviously it says nothing about the number. If we look at the number of downloads of the current version, it's ~40000. Now many systems may download it multiple times. So the number is not an indicator for a large user community. > Wonder why you didn't mention anything about Clojurists Together, doesn't fit your narrative? https://www.clojuriststogether.org/members/ https://www.clojuriststogether.org/members/ It 'fits my narrative' well. Just count the number of the members. Don't get me wrong, that's all fine and useful in a small community, but to claim a handful of companies and a few hundred people is an indicator of a mainstream popularity is just massive overselling and looks 'silly' (to quote you again, sorry).
  - yogthos 7y ago
    If commercial usage of the language by companies big and small around the world along with funding of the ecosystem is not an indication of mainstream usage, then I guess we'll have to disagree on what constitutes mainstream.
    - lispm 7y ago
      Right, a few users don't make something mainstream. Big companies have thousands of developers - even non IT companies - that someone inside some big company uses a programming language doesn't make it an indicator for widespread (most people use something -> mainstream) usage. Mainstream: large relative and absolute numbers of users. For example the Porsche Taycan (-> Microsoft) is not a mainstream car, even though Bill Gates has one and Porsche is an incredible profitable company. https://www.economist.com/business/2019/09/12/porsche-is-small-but-highly-lucrative https://www.economist.com/business/2019/09/12/porsche-is-sma...
      - yogthos 7y ago
        well fair enough then

Scarbutt 7y ago

9 millions downloads in 10 years, expressjs has 12 millions download per week (if you want to go by that metric).

yogthos 7y ago
My whole point is that languages like like Js or Java are not a good metric, and you don't have to be as popular as the top handful of languages to be mainstream.
- lispm 7y ago
  > you don't have to be as popular as the top handful of languages to be mainstream. I thought being in the top is the definition of 'mainstream': 'most people use it, know it, learn it, ...'.
  - yogthos 7y ago
    Mainstream is typically taken to be known and widely used which Clojure is. You seem to have a personal much more restrictive definition which only includes the top few languages for reasons unstated.
    - lispm 7y ago
      > Mainstream is typically taken to be known and widely used which Clojure is. But Clojure is neither widely known nor widely used. The last Clojure survey was done by just 2500 people. > You seem to have a personal much more restrictive definition which only includes the top few languages for reasons unstated. The top ten languages are all two orders of magnitude more used than Clojure. They are mainstream. Literally they have millions of users. That's the definition of mainstream. Mainstream pop: the music most people hear and which dominates the charts. No one would claim that free jazz is mainstream, even though it has some stable fan group.
      - yogthos 7y ago