4 ms·

I'd love to know where your numbers come from

lispm 7y ago
Do you have other numbers? The last Clojure survey has ~2500 people responding. Which is basically the same for several years now. I we assume that 10 times more people are actively using Clojure, then that would be 25000. Still a lot less than the probably 7 million Java programmers and 8 million Python developers. https://www.zdnet.com/article/programming-languages-python-developers-now-outnumber-java-ones/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/programming-languages-python-d...
- yogthos 7y ago
  I'm not arguing that Clojure is as widely used as Java or Python, which are two most popular languages in the world. I'm saying that it's a ridiculous bar to set for calling something mainstream. However, there are some other metrics we can look at. For example, if we look at downloads for popular libraries, we can see that Ring's been downloaded 9,058,741 times, and obviously there are repeat downloads for the same users, but even accounting for that it indicates a much bigger user base than you're suggesting. https://clojars.org/ring/ring-core https://clojars.org/ring/ring-core Other data points would be commercial tooling like Cursive and commercial funding for projects with organizations like Clojurists Together indicates that there is a critical mass of commercial users who are willing to fund projects https://lambdaisland.com/blog/2020-02-03-open-collective-lambda-island-open-source https://lambdaisland.com/blog/2020-02-03-open-collective-lam... https://www.clojuriststogether.org/ https://www.clojuriststogether.org/ Finally, Clojure usage is growing for new projects both in enterprise and government sectors in countries like Finalnd https://twitter.com/autiomaa/status/1235944730267193345 https://twitter.com/autiomaa/status/1235944730267193345 https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1nCZ-GmWLcH8Dcz3XJHY00xbm42V9-rBL9n2PGkKYp0k/edit?folder=0AM-3FGnMl8asUk9PVA https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1nCZ-GmWLcH8Dcz3XJHY0... This is a very different picture from a tiny isolated community of a few thousand developers that you seem to be painting.
  - lispm 7y ago
    > 9,058,741 times, This says nothing about the number of human users. > This is a very different picture from a tiny isolated community of a few thousand developers that you seem to be painting. https://opencollective.com/lambda-island#section-contributors https://opencollective.com/lambda-island#section-contributor... They have 13 contributors.
    - yogthos 7y ago
      >This says nothing about the number of human users. It obviously does because people are using these libraries in their projects. As I noted, it's an indirect measure, but it still gives an idea of the usage. And Open Collective was just announced last month, so not sure what point you were trying to make there. Wonder why you didn't mention anything about Clojurists Together, doesn't fit your narrative? https://www.clojuriststogether.org/members/ https://www.clojuriststogether.org/members/
      - lispm 7y ago
        > It obviously does because people are using these libraries in their projects. Obviously it says nothing about the number. If we look at the number of downloads of the current version, it's ~40000. Now many systems may download it multiple times. So the number is not an indicator for a large user community. > Wonder why you didn't mention anything about Clojurists Together, doesn't fit your narrative? https://www.clojuriststogether.org/members/ https://www.clojuriststogether.org/members/ It 'fits my narrative' well. Just count the number of the members. Don't get me wrong, that's all fine and useful in a small community, but to claim a handful of companies and a few hundred people is an indicator of a mainstream popularity is just massive overselling and looks 'silly' (to quote you again, sorry).
        yogthos 7y ago
        If commercial usage of the language by companies big and small around the world along with funding of the ecosystem is not an indication of mainstream usage, then I guess we'll have to disagree on what constitutes mainstream.

Do you have other numbers? The last Clojure survey has ~2500 people responding. Which is basically the same for several years now. I we assume that 10 times more people are actively using Clojure, then that would be 25000. Still a lot less than the probably 7 million Java programmers and 8 million Python developers. https://www.zdnet.com/article/programming-languages-python-developers-now-outnumber-java-ones/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/programming-languages-python-d...

yogthos 7y ago
I'm not arguing that Clojure is as widely used as Java or Python, which are two most popular languages in the world. I'm saying that it's a ridiculous bar to set for calling something mainstream. However, there are some other metrics we can look at. For example, if we look at downloads for popular libraries, we can see that Ring's been downloaded 9,058,741 times, and obviously there are repeat downloads for the same users, but even accounting for that it indicates a much bigger user base than you're suggesting. https://clojars.org/ring/ring-core https://clojars.org/ring/ring-core Other data points would be commercial tooling like Cursive and commercial funding for projects with organizations like Clojurists Together indicates that there is a critical mass of commercial users who are willing to fund projects https://lambdaisland.com/blog/2020-02-03-open-collective-lambda-island-open-source https://lambdaisland.com/blog/2020-02-03-open-collective-lam... https://www.clojuriststogether.org/ https://www.clojuriststogether.org/ Finally, Clojure usage is growing for new projects both in enterprise and government sectors in countries like Finalnd https://twitter.com/autiomaa/status/1235944730267193345 https://twitter.com/autiomaa/status/1235944730267193345 https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1nCZ-GmWLcH8Dcz3XJHY00xbm42V9-rBL9n2PGkKYp0k/edit?folder=0AM-3FGnMl8asUk9PVA https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1nCZ-GmWLcH8Dcz3XJHY0... This is a very different picture from a tiny isolated community of a few thousand developers that you seem to be painting.
- lispm 7y ago
  > 9,058,741 times, This says nothing about the number of human users. > This is a very different picture from a tiny isolated community of a few thousand developers that you seem to be painting. https://opencollective.com/lambda-island#section-contributors https://opencollective.com/lambda-island#section-contributor... They have 13 contributors.
  - yogthos 7y ago
    >This says nothing about the number of human users. It obviously does because people are using these libraries in their projects. As I noted, it's an indirect measure, but it still gives an idea of the usage. And Open Collective was just announced last month, so not sure what point you were trying to make there. Wonder why you didn't mention anything about Clojurists Together, doesn't fit your narrative? https://www.clojuriststogether.org/members/ https://www.clojuriststogether.org/members/
    - lispm 7y ago
      > It obviously does because people are using these libraries in their projects. Obviously it says nothing about the number. If we look at the number of downloads of the current version, it's ~40000. Now many systems may download it multiple times. So the number is not an indicator for a large user community. > Wonder why you didn't mention anything about Clojurists Together, doesn't fit your narrative? https://www.clojuriststogether.org/members/ https://www.clojuriststogether.org/members/ It 'fits my narrative' well. Just count the number of the members. Don't get me wrong, that's all fine and useful in a small community, but to claim a handful of companies and a few hundred people is an indicator of a mainstream popularity is just massive overselling and looks 'silly' (to quote you again, sorry).
      - yogthos 7y ago
        If commercial usage of the language by companies big and small around the world along with funding of the ecosystem is not an indication of mainstream usage, then I guess we'll have to disagree on what constitutes mainstream.