4 ms·

That's what I think of every time I see a post about some new VC backed startup that says they are going to disrupt an industry by creating a lean product that

by dx87 7y ago

That's what I think of every time I see a post about some new VC backed startup that says they are going to disrupt an industry by creating a lean product that cuts out all of the unnecessary cruft and legacy systems. People need to learn that there's usually a reason something is done a certain way, and having barrels of VC money doesn't make you an expert in a field.

naskwo 7y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Chesterton%27s_fence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Chesterton%27s_fence
- brain5ide 7y ago
  Pasting this has recently become a meme. Not sure it applies here, as it's not about removing stuff from the same instance, but about a competitive lean product? Innovators dilemma?
  - vikramkr 7y ago
    It's about removing legacy systems and pretty directly about reforming xyz industry with the new tech, so I think the principle of reform requiring knowing why something you want to get rid be of is there in the first place is directly related to the topic
  - salawat 7y ago
    A quirk of information propagation. If it's there, it was put there for a reason. If you don't understand the reason, you're at risk of having to rediscover it the hard way; something we generally wish to avoid at all costs. Which is somewhat ironic considering the attitude around things like Trade Secrets leading to a plethora of Chesterton's Fences being basically guaranteed to litter the economic landscape.
    - strbean 7y ago
      I think the real irony is that much of the time fences exist because of the quirks (fences) of some other system you are stuck with. Sometimes it feels like it is fences all the way down. Other times, you work your way down 5 layers of dependencies and discover that the whole pile of ugliness is because the core system is designed around physically mailing boxes full of reel-to-reel tapes. When that is the case, there is potential for a cascade of "lean modern apps" to de-cruft an industry.
robjan 7y ago
Ultimately, RH is backed by a legacy system somewhere. I believe they custom built their OMS (order management system) which was the previous bottleneck but somewhere between RH and the other side of the order is a legacy system that they can't disrupt.
- yumraj 7y ago
  If that were true, why are other equity trading systems, and by that I mean every other trading system, doing fine? The problem is RH itself.
- dannyw 7y ago
  To claim that RH would outscale NYSE, NASDAQ, and market makers like Citadel and Renaissance Technologies is absurd. It's like saying Airbnb is taking down root level DNS servers.
  - dehrmann 7y ago
    > Renaissance Technologies I didn't realize they were a big player in this game. Citadel definitely is, though.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- manigandham 7y ago
  RH doesn't fill anything, they only forward orders. All of the exchanges and other brokers are up and running just fine. This is strictly an RH problem. Their last blog post said it was a DNS problem.
  - robjan 7y ago
    Fully aware of that. RH don't even directly connect to the exchange, they use a third party execution broker. Since all securities are affected, it probably actually is their OMS which is malfunctioning.
greenhatman 7y ago
Sometimes the reason it's done that way, is because they were in a rush in the first iteration, and never got around to refactoring. Loads of VC money means you can take more time up front to architect things better. Maybe have more experiences engineers and architects on the team from the start.
- papito 7y ago
  Not really. VCs expect 10x returns. Yesterday. They really don't care if it's the best system ever designed. It just has to work until a liquidity event.
- elamje 7y ago
  I understand your point, but I think VC backed companies are likely in a more hyper growth mindset than banks and conservative industries were when they were making these systems in the 80’s. As much flak as I’ll get for saying this, why Python? It seems like Robinhood went all in on an ecosystem that is easy to get an MVP off of the ground with, but certainly not as fast and reliable as you would expect a system moving billions everyday. Language typically doesn’t matter for end users, but man, there are at least 10 solid options to build a critical trading system in that are faster and safer than Python.
  - CameronNemo 7y ago
    Is it really 100% python? I can't find any indication of what they use besides the python helper library for Kafka. Seems like a message queue would be conducive to partial rewriting of the system.

by dx87 7y ago

naskwo 7y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Chesterton%27s_fence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Chesterton%27s_fence

brain5ide 7y ago
Pasting this has recently become a meme. Not sure it applies here, as it's not about removing stuff from the same instance, but about a competitive lean product? Innovators dilemma?
- vikramkr 7y ago
  It's about removing legacy systems and pretty directly about reforming xyz industry with the new tech, so I think the principle of reform requiring knowing why something you want to get rid be of is there in the first place is directly related to the topic
- salawat 7y ago
  A quirk of information propagation. If it's there, it was put there for a reason. If you don't understand the reason, you're at risk of having to rediscover it the hard way; something we generally wish to avoid at all costs. Which is somewhat ironic considering the attitude around things like Trade Secrets leading to a plethora of Chesterton's Fences being basically guaranteed to litter the economic landscape.
  - strbean 7y ago
    I think the real irony is that much of the time fences exist because of the quirks (fences) of some other system you are stuck with. Sometimes it feels like it is fences all the way down. Other times, you work your way down 5 layers of dependencies and discover that the whole pile of ugliness is because the core system is designed around physically mailing boxes full of reel-to-reel tapes. When that is the case, there is potential for a cascade of "lean modern apps" to de-cruft an industry.

robjan 7y ago

Ultimately, RH is backed by a legacy system somewhere. I believe they custom built their OMS (order management system) which was the previous bottleneck but somewhere between RH and the other side of the order is a legacy system that they can't disrupt.

yumraj 7y ago
If that were true, why are other equity trading systems, and by that I mean every other trading system, doing fine? The problem is RH itself.
dannyw 7y ago
To claim that RH would outscale NYSE, NASDAQ, and market makers like Citadel and Renaissance Technologies is absurd. It's like saying Airbnb is taking down root level DNS servers.
- dehrmann 7y ago
  > Renaissance Technologies I didn't realize they were a big player in this game. Citadel definitely is, though.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
manigandham 7y ago
RH doesn't fill anything, they only forward orders. All of the exchanges and other brokers are up and running just fine. This is strictly an RH problem. Their last blog post said it was a DNS problem.
- robjan 7y ago
  Fully aware of that. RH don't even directly connect to the exchange, they use a third party execution broker. Since all securities are affected, it probably actually is their OMS which is malfunctioning.

greenhatman 7y ago

Sometimes the reason it's done that way, is because they were in a rush in the first iteration, and never got around to refactoring. Loads of VC money means you can take more time up front to architect things better. Maybe have more experiences engineers and architects on the team from the start.

papito 7y ago
Not really. VCs expect 10x returns. Yesterday. They really don't care if it's the best system ever designed. It just has to work until a liquidity event.
elamje 7y ago
I understand your point, but I think VC backed companies are likely in a more hyper growth mindset than banks and conservative industries were when they were making these systems in the 80’s. As much flak as I’ll get for saying this, why Python? It seems like Robinhood went all in on an ecosystem that is easy to get an MVP off of the ground with, but certainly not as fast and reliable as you would expect a system moving billions everyday. Language typically doesn’t matter for end users, but man, there are at least 10 solid options to build a critical trading system in that are faster and safer than Python.
- CameronNemo 7y ago
  Is it really 100% python? I can't find any indication of what they use besides the python helper library for Kafka. Seems like a message queue would be conducive to partial rewriting of the system.