6 ms·

> We are also announcing this week an “/e/ easy installer” that will make the flashing process much more easier, by pluging the smartphone to a PC and launching

> We are also announcing this week an “/e/ easy installer” that will make the flashing process much more easier, by pluging the smartphone to a PC and launching a dedicated application that will make most of the job. Why do phones require device-specific builds and ROM flashing just to install a different OS? Why isn't there a phone out there with a normal boot loader that allows me to install whatever OS I want like I can on a PC? I have a perfectly good phone, but I know I'm going to have to buy a new one eventually just because the manufacturer will stop supporting the hardware. Meanwhile, I have decades-old PCs that are running just fine. Privacy is important. Removing Google from the picture is great. But I don't see this, LineageOS, or anything else taking off until we have a more accessible solution for installing mobile operating systems. An application that streamlines the flashing process is nice, but I don't think that's enough.

doublerabbit 7y ago
>Why do phones require device-specific builds and ROM flashing just to install a different OS? Capitalism. And reasons that Google/Apple want you locked to their operating system, their hardware. Prove me wrong.
- doublerabbit 7y ago
  Downvoted with no reasoning. Nice
  - nekopa 7y ago
    Maybe because your comment didn't mention anything specific to prove wrong. Just saying Capitalism and Reasons doesn't mean anything. Could I just say "Communism" and thereby prove you wrong?
    - doublerabbit 7y ago
      > And reasons that Google/Apple want you locked to their operating system, their hardware. Well, do they not? Locking you to their product, forcing you to use their product for their own gain. Apple won't even let you repair your phone unless you go via their own dealers. You could call communism, but there isn't any communism element to it. It's all capitalism to answer OP's question to "Why can't I install any operating system" because you can, there is nothing stopping you apart from the companies that control the product.
      - tracker1 7y ago
        Capitalism + IP Protectionist policy would be more apt a description. But this isn't any more or less capitalism than say Capitalism + Social welfare programs are Marxism or Socialism. Personally, I'm hoping that some states grow a pair and actually pass meaningful right to repair legislation, then a lot of things will tumble. There are plenty of Libertarian and Capitalist supporters who do not like the corporatist status quo. That doesn't mean that Capitalism itself is the issue. If it weren't for IP protections, there would be more interoperability most likely, or better service/support. Sharing communication breaks, and offering run-alike chip and interface replacements would be less of an issue. Not to mention, it's Corporatist IP protections that keep out competitive upstarts. Also, Apple happens to make most of their devices in a Communist country, so how does that stand?
  - jshevek 7y ago
    I downvoted your comment because it lacked substance, invited a flame war (whether or not it was intended), and ended with an idiom I associate with low quality discourse.
monocasa 7y ago
The problem's not the bootloader (pretty much all Android kernels use the same bootloader format), it's that the hardware introspectable by software, and the device tree passed in to make up for that isn't designed to be used by anybody other than the OEM in the first place. It's like the days of when Linux didnt support ACPI well, but now everything is behind ACPI tables instead of PCI config space.
- throwaway2048 7y ago
  acpi would be a blessing, the norm for ARM SoCs is absolutely no enumerablity whatsoever, just devices hanging off a random address in memory somewhere.
ryukafalz 7y ago
> Why do phones require device-specific builds and ROM flashing just to install a different OS? Why isn't there a phone out there with a normal boot loader that allows me to install whatever OS I want like I can on a PC? A few reasons: 1. Proprietary drivers are the norm for mobile devices, whereas (with a few exceptions) this is not the case for desktops/laptops. 2. Even when the drivers are free, standard practice among device manufacturers seems to be forking the kernel for each device and working off that fork. These things don’t and can’t run on mainline Linux/Android. See the Librem 5 and PinePhone for what are probably the only two devices attempting to fix the above problems. And even if you fixed those: 3. ARM devices typically don’t have the same device enumeration capabilities as x86 PCs, meaning you need a separate device tree for each one. I believe there are also efforts underway to improve this situation, but that’s where we are at the moment.
- monocasa 7y ago
  Proprietary drivers are very much the norm on windows and mac.
  - ryukafalz 7y ago
    That’s true, I was mostly looking at this from a Linux-centric point of view. You won’t be running Windows or macOS on your phone.
    - monocasa 7y ago
      What I'm getting at is that propreitary drivers has no bearing on the matter when 90+% of PCs are running propreitary drivers.
      - ryukafalz 7y ago
        It does on Linux, where there's no stable ABI for drivers to use, right? Yes, that's a design decision on Linux's part, but it's one that seems to be working out just fine for PCs.
ac29 7y ago
All Android phones that shipped with Android 9 or later can flash a generic system image (GSI): https://developer.android.com/topic/generic-system-image https://developer.android.com/topic/generic-system-image Unlocked bootloaders aren't terribly common though outside of Google's devices.

doublerabbit 7y ago

>Why do phones require device-specific builds and ROM flashing just to install a different OS? Capitalism. And reasons that Google/Apple want you locked to their operating system, their hardware. Prove me wrong.

doublerabbit 7y ago
Downvoted with no reasoning. Nice
- nekopa 7y ago
  Maybe because your comment didn't mention anything specific to prove wrong. Just saying Capitalism and Reasons doesn't mean anything. Could I just say "Communism" and thereby prove you wrong?
  - doublerabbit 7y ago
    > And reasons that Google/Apple want you locked to their operating system, their hardware. Well, do they not? Locking you to their product, forcing you to use their product for their own gain. Apple won't even let you repair your phone unless you go via their own dealers. You could call communism, but there isn't any communism element to it. It's all capitalism to answer OP's question to "Why can't I install any operating system" because you can, there is nothing stopping you apart from the companies that control the product.
    - tracker1 7y ago
      Capitalism + IP Protectionist policy would be more apt a description. But this isn't any more or less capitalism than say Capitalism + Social welfare programs are Marxism or Socialism. Personally, I'm hoping that some states grow a pair and actually pass meaningful right to repair legislation, then a lot of things will tumble. There are plenty of Libertarian and Capitalist supporters who do not like the corporatist status quo. That doesn't mean that Capitalism itself is the issue. If it weren't for IP protections, there would be more interoperability most likely, or better service/support. Sharing communication breaks, and offering run-alike chip and interface replacements would be less of an issue. Not to mention, it's Corporatist IP protections that keep out competitive upstarts. Also, Apple happens to make most of their devices in a Communist country, so how does that stand?
- jshevek 7y ago
  I downvoted your comment because it lacked substance, invited a flame war (whether or not it was intended), and ended with an idiom I associate with low quality discourse.

monocasa 7y ago

The problem's not the bootloader (pretty much all Android kernels use the same bootloader format), it's that the hardware introspectable by software, and the device tree passed in to make up for that isn't designed to be used by anybody other than the OEM in the first place. It's like the days of when Linux didnt support ACPI well, but now everything is behind ACPI tables instead of PCI config space.

throwaway2048 7y ago
acpi would be a blessing, the norm for ARM SoCs is absolutely no enumerablity whatsoever, just devices hanging off a random address in memory somewhere.

ryukafalz 7y ago

> Why do phones require device-specific builds and ROM flashing just to install a different OS? Why isn't there a phone out there with a normal boot loader that allows me to install whatever OS I want like I can on a PC? A few reasons: 1. Proprietary drivers are the norm for mobile devices, whereas (with a few exceptions) this is not the case for desktops/laptops. 2. Even when the drivers are free, standard practice among device manufacturers seems to be forking the kernel for each device and working off that fork. These things don’t and can’t run on mainline Linux/Android. See the Librem 5 and PinePhone for what are probably the only two devices attempting to fix the above problems. And even if you fixed those: 3. ARM devices typically don’t have the same device enumeration capabilities as x86 PCs, meaning you need a separate device tree for each one. I believe there are also efforts underway to improve this situation, but that’s where we are at the moment.

monocasa 7y ago
Proprietary drivers are very much the norm on windows and mac.
- ryukafalz 7y ago
  That’s true, I was mostly looking at this from a Linux-centric point of view. You won’t be running Windows or macOS on your phone.
  - monocasa 7y ago
    What I'm getting at is that propreitary drivers has no bearing on the matter when 90+% of PCs are running propreitary drivers.
    - ryukafalz 7y ago
      It does on Linux, where there's no stable ABI for drivers to use, right? Yes, that's a design decision on Linux's part, but it's one that seems to be working out just fine for PCs.

ac29 7y ago

All Android phones that shipped with Android 9 or later can flash a generic system image (GSI): https://developer.android.com/topic/generic-system-image https://developer.android.com/topic/generic-system-image Unlocked bootloaders aren't terribly common though outside of Google's devices.