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For you, not for anyone actually working with the language. Which again points to the test being entirely irrelevant for the stated purpose. Some random high s

by kick 7y ago

For you, not for anyone actually working with the language. Which again points to the test being entirely irrelevant for the stated purpose. Some random high school student probably can't read your Swift. Sure, it might help them out somehow with the Excel functions they're needing, but it doesn't change whether or not Swift is a good or bad language, or whether the test actually means anything significant.

saagarjha 7y ago
I think a random high school student who has just finished AP Computer Science should be able to read my Swift, at least when the task itself is not complicated. Maybe not all of it, but I think it's a failure if they can't get the gist of it. (Interesting anecdote: I have gotten emails from people who have translated some of my Swift code which talked to an API endpoint I reverse-engineered to their platform of choice. They knew what at GET request is, but they were familiar with was JavaScript or Kotlin or whatever–but they were able to make use of code written in a language they couldn't write. I think that's really great.)
- kick 7y ago
  You added more criteria to this high school student. Almost every one of them will have to use and program spreadsheets, few learn to program using an ALGOL-like language. The idea you put forth disqualifies any programming language that isn't derivative of ALGOL: it's exactly the sort of thing used against Lisp dialects, and many other languages that have shown themselves to be quite wonderful ("What's cdr? That's stupid!" "You're telling me you use color instead of operators? Malarkey!" "What in Hell is Reverse Polish Notation?! This is America!"). APL (and derivatives, but using APL as it's the chief example of the paradigm and because if you know APL, k is readable) doesn't require a semester in a classroom, it requires a week or two and a book. (Question: when did they start teaching AP Computer Science?)
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    Somewhat; there's a number of things about K which make it uniquely difficult to understand. One is of course that it is unpopular and nobody has really seen it before: while this isn't an inherent issue with the language, it is a practical one, since K exists in a world where other programming languages exist and people with experience in those languages exist. Something that can be understood by more of them is generally a nice feature to have. K's style of short identifiers makes it even harder to be accessible: while many non-programmers can kind of guess the purpose of some programs from these, K makes this essentially impossible. I would have to disagree with your assertion that APL's derivatives are fundamentally better and/or faster to learn actual computer science (note: AP Computer Science–which I think started in the '80s?–does not actually teach this very well, either). I think they're probably comparable, although it might be easier to get some of the numerical stuff because many students might be familiar with math.
    - kick 7y ago
      I would have to disagree with your assertion that APL's derivatives are fundamentally better and/or faster to learn actual computer science Have you tried learning any of them? I think this is an unfair thing to say without having at least given it a try.
- neonate 7y ago
  "a random high school student who has just finished AP Computer Science" This probably assumes your conclusion, since AP computer science probably teaches one style of programming rather than another.

by kick 7y ago

saagarjha 7y ago

I think a random high school student who has just finished AP Computer Science should be able to read my Swift, at least when the task itself is not complicated. Maybe not all of it, but I think it's a failure if they can't get the gist of it. (Interesting anecdote: I have gotten emails from people who have translated some of my Swift code which talked to an API endpoint I reverse-engineered to their platform of choice. They knew what at GET request is, but they were familiar with was JavaScript or Kotlin or whatever–but they were able to make use of code written in a language they couldn't write. I think that's really great.)

kick 7y ago
You added more criteria to this high school student. Almost every one of them will have to use and program spreadsheets, few learn to program using an ALGOL-like language. The idea you put forth disqualifies any programming language that isn't derivative of ALGOL: it's exactly the sort of thing used against Lisp dialects, and many other languages that have shown themselves to be quite wonderful ("What's cdr? That's stupid!" "You're telling me you use color instead of operators? Malarkey!" "What in Hell is Reverse Polish Notation?! This is America!"). APL (and derivatives, but using APL as it's the chief example of the paradigm and because if you know APL, k is readable) doesn't require a semester in a classroom, it requires a week or two and a book. (Question: when did they start teaching AP Computer Science?)
- saagarjha 7y ago
  Somewhat; there's a number of things about K which make it uniquely difficult to understand. One is of course that it is unpopular and nobody has really seen it before: while this isn't an inherent issue with the language, it is a practical one, since K exists in a world where other programming languages exist and people with experience in those languages exist. Something that can be understood by more of them is generally a nice feature to have. K's style of short identifiers makes it even harder to be accessible: while many non-programmers can kind of guess the purpose of some programs from these, K makes this essentially impossible. I would have to disagree with your assertion that APL's derivatives are fundamentally better and/or faster to learn actual computer science (note: AP Computer Science–which I think started in the '80s?–does not actually teach this very well, either). I think they're probably comparable, although it might be easier to get some of the numerical stuff because many students might be familiar with math.
  - kick 7y ago
    I would have to disagree with your assertion that APL's derivatives are fundamentally better and/or faster to learn actual computer science Have you tried learning any of them? I think this is an unfair thing to say without having at least given it a try.
neonate 7y ago
"a random high school student who has just finished AP Computer Science" This probably assumes your conclusion, since AP computer science probably teaches one style of programming rather than another.