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Sure. In the absolute worst case, WFH is better. That doesn't really tell us anything. The average commute is 26.9 minutes, and that is heavily skewed by metro

Sure. In the absolute worst case, WFH is better. That doesn't really tell us anything. The average commute is 26.9 minutes, and that is heavily skewed by metropolitan areas. Some data here[1]. Now let's consider the worst case WFH scenario: you're paid less, promotions are less frequent, there is less comradery among your team, you feel lonely because you spent your whole workday alone. You get the point. Obviously, the best case scenario is to allow workers to decide what they want to do. Picking the form of work that fits your personality, your career, your home life, your values, etc and then trying to force that on 300+ million people is absurd. The good news is that a substantial amount of people do get to choose[2]. [1] https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/interactive/work-travel-time.html https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/interactive/wo... [2] https://news.gallup.com/businessjournal/206033/america-coming-workplace-home-alone.aspx?utm_source=link_wwwv9&utm_campaign=item_236222&utm_medium=copy https://news.gallup.com/businessjournal/206033/america-comin...

ntsplnkv2 7y ago
This is a straw-man - I didn't propose the worst case. There are many cases which are far worse. So already that is, on average, 1 hour lost per commuting. A huge portion would have commutes worse than that. That data would always be skewed by metro areas - that is where most people live, and where housing would force people to take long commutes. > Now let's consider the worst case WFH scenario: you're paid less, promotions are less frequent, there is less comradery among your team, you feel lonely because you spent your whole workday alone. You get the point. Why would you argue this, if in the very first sentence of your reply, you stated the worst case "doesn't really tell us anything?" Back to the straw-man point - no one is suggesting that anyone be forced to do anything. Just pointing out why many would like an option to WFH whereas others may not. I agree overall that more choice and flexibility is good.
- tomatocracy 7y ago
  I think it's a mistake to view all commuting time as "lost". For example, my commute is about 40 minutes door to door. But I walk to work and listen to podcasts as I go so I'm getting some light exercise and catching up on things I want to listen to. If I didn't do these as part of my commute, I'd have to find other time to do them. I also find it helpful mentally to have a "transition" time between home and work to get ready for my day or wind down after work when things are getting more stressful, and I've heard others say the same. Friends who commute to work on the train use the time to read books or sleep. Again, if they didn't do these things then, they'd need to find some other time to do them so the actual amount of lost time is pretty small.
  - Broken_Hippo 7y ago
    This is really important! I really enjoyed my 30-minute walking commute. It didn't feel like wasted time: I got exercise and time to think and all of that stuff. It also gives me the chance to explore a bit on my way home (since I don't have time constraints).
  - arethuza 7y ago
    Best commute I ever had was a 1 hour cycle that was mostly uphill and into the prevailing wind in the morning.
  - CaptArmchair 7y ago
    It's a mistake to limit your view towards either of both stances. Here's a great study about the complexity of associating well-being and commuting: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11116-019-09983-9#Sec13 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11116-019-09983-9... Whether your commute sucks depends on the direct context: modes of transport, time of day,... But it also depends on why you ended up choosing to accept the commute and the trade-offs you made that made you end up in that position. The study does report that longer commutes have a clear negative impact on subjective well-being. Sure, it's nice to read or sleep on a train or bus. But if you're spending 3 hours a day between doors, you're not spending that time on other, deeply personal, pursuits: taking care of your kids, taking a walk through the park, spending time with family or friends, cooking a proper meal for yourself, working out, etc. etc. Tons of people spend hours on the road or in the train between urban centers and suburban areas. Why? Because the former is where they'd find the job they need to be able to afford to live in the latter. That's how you come to see things like "sleeper" or "commuter" towns: partly deserted areas where a large part of the population has gone away for the day. Which, of course, impacts local economy and social structures. Modern commuting is a relatively new evolution. Historically, work and home life bled into one another and people lived close to their work, depending on the context. There were absolutely obvious drawbacks, but you'd also see that society consisted of local communities with a strong social cohesion. Modern commuting is a side effect of the rise of the modern workplace from the early to mid-20th century on. Commuting is also caused by a process called gentrification: the renovation of urban neighborhoods, and as a result the influx of a more wealthy demographic pushing out the poorer strata who can't afford housing anymore. Let's not forget that some modern hip and famous urban neighborhoods in New York, San Fransisco, Paris, Berlin or London historically used to be ghetto's where poor and destitute lived in tenamments. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentrification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentrification Now, I don't think that a single flu epidemic or a recession is going to suddenly change how we are going to live and work overnight. Instead, I think we'll rather see profound changes over the course of the next 50 years as populations are ageing and our very lifestyle and Modern Way of Living - including commuting, views on family choices and high education levels - will (and already is) spawning fundamental and existential questions among young people.
tekknik 7y ago
Two things, your source for travel times puts average San Diego commute at 26 minutes. It’s more like 1 hour minimum depending on what time of day you leave. I’d question the accuracy of this data even though it’s gov data. It looks like you picked the best case here yourself. Second thing, not everybody has a need or even a want to be around people during their work day. I have horrible ADD, socializing at work means I get nothing done. Further why do you get less promotions and pay and why does team comradery suffer? I can’t see a correlation between WFH and those items you listed.

ntsplnkv2 7y ago

This is a straw-man - I didn't propose the worst case. There are many cases which are far worse. So already that is, on average, 1 hour lost per commuting. A huge portion would have commutes worse than that. That data would always be skewed by metro areas - that is where most people live, and where housing would force people to take long commutes. > Now let's consider the worst case WFH scenario: you're paid less, promotions are less frequent, there is less comradery among your team, you feel lonely because you spent your whole workday alone. You get the point. Why would you argue this, if in the very first sentence of your reply, you stated the worst case "doesn't really tell us anything?" Back to the straw-man point - no one is suggesting that anyone be forced to do anything. Just pointing out why many would like an option to WFH whereas others may not. I agree overall that more choice and flexibility is good.

tomatocracy 7y ago
I think it's a mistake to view all commuting time as "lost". For example, my commute is about 40 minutes door to door. But I walk to work and listen to podcasts as I go so I'm getting some light exercise and catching up on things I want to listen to. If I didn't do these as part of my commute, I'd have to find other time to do them. I also find it helpful mentally to have a "transition" time between home and work to get ready for my day or wind down after work when things are getting more stressful, and I've heard others say the same. Friends who commute to work on the train use the time to read books or sleep. Again, if they didn't do these things then, they'd need to find some other time to do them so the actual amount of lost time is pretty small.
- Broken_Hippo 7y ago
  This is really important! I really enjoyed my 30-minute walking commute. It didn't feel like wasted time: I got exercise and time to think and all of that stuff. It also gives me the chance to explore a bit on my way home (since I don't have time constraints).
- arethuza 7y ago
  Best commute I ever had was a 1 hour cycle that was mostly uphill and into the prevailing wind in the morning.
- CaptArmchair 7y ago
  It's a mistake to limit your view towards either of both stances. Here's a great study about the complexity of associating well-being and commuting: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11116-019-09983-9#Sec13 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11116-019-09983-9... Whether your commute sucks depends on the direct context: modes of transport, time of day,... But it also depends on why you ended up choosing to accept the commute and the trade-offs you made that made you end up in that position. The study does report that longer commutes have a clear negative impact on subjective well-being. Sure, it's nice to read or sleep on a train or bus. But if you're spending 3 hours a day between doors, you're not spending that time on other, deeply personal, pursuits: taking care of your kids, taking a walk through the park, spending time with family or friends, cooking a proper meal for yourself, working out, etc. etc. Tons of people spend hours on the road or in the train between urban centers and suburban areas. Why? Because the former is where they'd find the job they need to be able to afford to live in the latter. That's how you come to see things like "sleeper" or "commuter" towns: partly deserted areas where a large part of the population has gone away for the day. Which, of course, impacts local economy and social structures. Modern commuting is a relatively new evolution. Historically, work and home life bled into one another and people lived close to their work, depending on the context. There were absolutely obvious drawbacks, but you'd also see that society consisted of local communities with a strong social cohesion. Modern commuting is a side effect of the rise of the modern workplace from the early to mid-20th century on. Commuting is also caused by a process called gentrification: the renovation of urban neighborhoods, and as a result the influx of a more wealthy demographic pushing out the poorer strata who can't afford housing anymore. Let's not forget that some modern hip and famous urban neighborhoods in New York, San Fransisco, Paris, Berlin or London historically used to be ghetto's where poor and destitute lived in tenamments. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentrification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentrification Now, I don't think that a single flu epidemic or a recession is going to suddenly change how we are going to live and work overnight. Instead, I think we'll rather see profound changes over the course of the next 50 years as populations are ageing and our very lifestyle and Modern Way of Living - including commuting, views on family choices and high education levels - will (and already is) spawning fundamental and existential questions among young people.

tekknik 7y ago

Two things, your source for travel times puts average San Diego commute at 26 minutes. It’s more like 1 hour minimum depending on what time of day you leave. I’d question the accuracy of this data even though it’s gov data. It looks like you picked the best case here yourself. Second thing, not everybody has a need or even a want to be around people during their work day. I have horrible ADD, socializing at work means I get nothing done. Further why do you get less promotions and pay and why does team comradery suffer? I can’t see a correlation between WFH and those items you listed.