8 ms·

Why not just do the time-sheets?

petervandijck 16y ago
You have to draw the line somewhere. Early and clearly is best.
tptacek 16y ago
For one thing, because it is part of the way that your team is turned into a Resource. I never watched Star Trek, but I'm pop-culture literate, and my understanding is they use something called "nanoprobes" to effect the process of "assimilation". Once you're assimilated, business decisions that impact your team become an MBA math abstraction to the parent company leadership. Time sheets are BigCo's mechanism for mapping what people to do top-down business objectives. The tops of most BigCo's think they have a strategy, but usually don't. Also, there is something about timecard software that brings out the worst in enterprise software developers. I have never, ever seen one implemented well. I get to see a lot of them in this job.
- wh-uws 16y ago
  there is something about timecard software that brings out the worst in enterprise software developers. I have never, ever seen one implemented well. If I could upvote that a thousand times I would. Why o why is this so true? And why hasn't anyone done anything about it?
  - zeemonkee 16y ago
    Having recently been forced to use one maybe I have a little bit of perspective. The problem I believe, is, fundamentally, the need for managers to justify their existence. Whereas other roles in the organization - engineers, salespeople, secretaries - have clear reason for their existence and work they can point to (code written, products sold, paychecks processed) managers do not. The fact that nobody reads any of these timesheets and that project estimates based on hours are a complete nonsensical fiction are really beside the point. The point is that the very production of this work is taken as proof that the manager, too, is producing valuable work. In small startups timesheets are irrelevant because everyone has their heads down getting on with the job. Managers exist, but the company can't afford to have people who just "manage". They do other valuable roles - whether technical or sales or office admin. The sign of a company "growing up" is when you suddenly have all these new people you have to report to, with ill-defined titles like "Product Delivery Manager" - and the timesheets. OK, but why are timesheet programs so badly designed ? The hardest thing in software development is to design something that's ill-defined - in other words, if the purpose of the program is a bad one, it's really hard to build a good program to fulfill that purpose. Simple timekeeping software isn't hard but management have so many nonsensical requirements that the software increases in complexity and correspondingly decreases in usability.
- yuhong 16y ago
  Yea I know, the myth that a MBA can manage everything.
- petervandijck 16y ago
  To timesheet software makers: you pretty much must have an "other" option in many of your dropdowns. That will solve a lot of problems right there. Here's why: http://poorbuthappy.com/ease/archives/2010/11/23/4827/data-cleanup-and-allowing-for-ambiguity http://poorbuthappy.com/ease/archives/2010/11/23/4827/data-c... and http://poorbuthappy.com/ease/archives/2010/11/27/4832/why-gender-is-a-text-field-more-on-ambiguity http://poorbuthappy.com/ease/archives/2010/11/27/4832/why-ge...
InclinedPlane 16y ago
Because creating software is a creative endeavor that requires talented and skilled individuals working imaginatively. Timesheets and other bureaucratic overhead are poisonous to that process. The best software can't be created in a factory assembly line with interchangeable drones.
- democracy 16y ago
  So the companies acquired by Yahoo created the best software? Even from the technical point of view the majority is an average project and an average team, I really don't see why someone acquired is different from the rest of the owner company.
  - InclinedPlane 16y ago
    In some cases, yes (flickr, delicious, etc.) If you're implying that Yahoo's MO is to acquire companies and convert them into pumping out hum-drum, mediocre software, well, that sounds about right.
  - ajays 16y ago
    I don't know why you're dragging Yahoo into the timesheets discussion. Yahoo does not have timesheets.
mgkimsal 16y ago
I've been at a few companies that required timesheets of software devs, and it was always weird/awkward at best. They never wanted just hours - they wanted to know what was done as well. Sometimes it's easy, sometimes it's not, but the thing that bugged me was that it eventually was used against you. Mgr: "Oh.. well.. I see here you've only put in 38 hours on core projects this last week... this doesn't look too good to others." Me: "Well, I was actually here in the building for 46 hours, but 8 of those hours were doing some other stuff that there's no timesheet entries for." Mgr: "Oh... like what?" Me: "Like answering questions from people in the building that have questions about some of the projects I'm working on - status updates, etc. Apparently you and the other managers aren't updating anyone, and they ask me." Mgr: "That's not your job." Me: "So... I should silently ignore them, or give them a canned response to go ask their own dept manager?" Mgr: "yes. But that didn't take 8 hours last week!" Me: "I was also doing some research on a couple new debugging tools." Mgr: "There's no need for that - the senior engineers are making their decision next week about what tool you'll use." Me: "OK...." Mgr: "I don't want to see you make a habit of 38 hours a week from now on." Me: "Ummm... the last 3 months I've been putting in 45-50 hours non-stop, and have been in on some weekends to work with some other people to hit the deadlines." Mgr: "Yeah, that's great, but 38 hours..." This is a composite of discussions I've had and colleagues have had with various managers over the years whenever timesheets are involved. YMMV.
- dennisgorelik 16y ago
  Mgr could not say it directly, but he implied that timesheet must have 40 hours reported on the main project. How hard could that be to write it down like that? I understand that it's still unpleasant to deal with that.
  - mgkimsal 16y ago
    So... lie. If they want dishonesty, just ask for it.
    - dennisgorelik 16y ago
      The manager wanted to see 40 hours reported against his main project. He did not want dishonesty, but probably would not mind some tweaking in how work activities are categorised in a timesheet.

You have to draw the line somewhere. Early and clearly is best.

For one thing, because it is part of the way that your team is turned into a Resource. I never watched Star Trek, but I'm pop-culture literate, and my understanding is they use something called "nanoprobes" to effect the process of "assimilation". Once you're assimilated, business decisions that impact your team become an MBA math abstraction to the parent company leadership. Time sheets are BigCo's mechanism for mapping what people to do top-down business objectives. The tops of most BigCo's think they have a strategy, but usually don't. Also, there is something about timecard software that brings out the worst in enterprise software developers. I have never, ever seen one implemented well. I get to see a lot of them in this job.

wh-uws 16y ago
there is something about timecard software that brings out the worst in enterprise software developers. I have never, ever seen one implemented well. If I could upvote that a thousand times I would. Why o why is this so true? And why hasn't anyone done anything about it?
- zeemonkee 16y ago
  Having recently been forced to use one maybe I have a little bit of perspective. The problem I believe, is, fundamentally, the need for managers to justify their existence. Whereas other roles in the organization - engineers, salespeople, secretaries - have clear reason for their existence and work they can point to (code written, products sold, paychecks processed) managers do not. The fact that nobody reads any of these timesheets and that project estimates based on hours are a complete nonsensical fiction are really beside the point. The point is that the very production of this work is taken as proof that the manager, too, is producing valuable work. In small startups timesheets are irrelevant because everyone has their heads down getting on with the job. Managers exist, but the company can't afford to have people who just "manage". They do other valuable roles - whether technical or sales or office admin. The sign of a company "growing up" is when you suddenly have all these new people you have to report to, with ill-defined titles like "Product Delivery Manager" - and the timesheets. OK, but why are timesheet programs so badly designed ? The hardest thing in software development is to design something that's ill-defined - in other words, if the purpose of the program is a bad one, it's really hard to build a good program to fulfill that purpose. Simple timekeeping software isn't hard but management have so many nonsensical requirements that the software increases in complexity and correspondingly decreases in usability.
yuhong 16y ago
Yea I know, the myth that a MBA can manage everything.
petervandijck 16y ago
To timesheet software makers: you pretty much must have an "other" option in many of your dropdowns. That will solve a lot of problems right there. Here's why: http://poorbuthappy.com/ease/archives/2010/11/23/4827/data-cleanup-and-allowing-for-ambiguity http://poorbuthappy.com/ease/archives/2010/11/23/4827/data-c... and http://poorbuthappy.com/ease/archives/2010/11/27/4832/why-gender-is-a-text-field-more-on-ambiguity http://poorbuthappy.com/ease/archives/2010/11/27/4832/why-ge...

InclinedPlane 16y ago

Because creating software is a creative endeavor that requires talented and skilled individuals working imaginatively. Timesheets and other bureaucratic overhead are poisonous to that process. The best software can't be created in a factory assembly line with interchangeable drones.

democracy 16y ago
So the companies acquired by Yahoo created the best software? Even from the technical point of view the majority is an average project and an average team, I really don't see why someone acquired is different from the rest of the owner company.
- InclinedPlane 16y ago
  In some cases, yes (flickr, delicious, etc.) If you're implying that Yahoo's MO is to acquire companies and convert them into pumping out hum-drum, mediocre software, well, that sounds about right.
- ajays 16y ago
  I don't know why you're dragging Yahoo into the timesheets discussion. Yahoo does not have timesheets.

mgkimsal 16y ago

I've been at a few companies that required timesheets of software devs, and it was always weird/awkward at best. They never wanted just hours - they wanted to know what was done as well. Sometimes it's easy, sometimes it's not, but the thing that bugged me was that it eventually was used against you. Mgr: "Oh.. well.. I see here you've only put in 38 hours on core projects this last week... this doesn't look too good to others." Me: "Well, I was actually here in the building for 46 hours, but 8 of those hours were doing some other stuff that there's no timesheet entries for." Mgr: "Oh... like what?" Me: "Like answering questions from people in the building that have questions about some of the projects I'm working on - status updates, etc. Apparently you and the other managers aren't updating anyone, and they ask me." Mgr: "That's not your job." Me: "So... I should silently ignore them, or give them a canned response to go ask their own dept manager?" Mgr: "yes. But that didn't take 8 hours last week!" Me: "I was also doing some research on a couple new debugging tools." Mgr: "There's no need for that - the senior engineers are making their decision next week about what tool you'll use." Me: "OK...." Mgr: "I don't want to see you make a habit of 38 hours a week from now on." Me: "Ummm... the last 3 months I've been putting in 45-50 hours non-stop, and have been in on some weekends to work with some other people to hit the deadlines." Mgr: "Yeah, that's great, but 38 hours..." This is a composite of discussions I've had and colleagues have had with various managers over the years whenever timesheets are involved. YMMV.

dennisgorelik 16y ago
Mgr could not say it directly, but he implied that timesheet must have 40 hours reported on the main project. How hard could that be to write it down like that? I understand that it's still unpleasant to deal with that.
- mgkimsal 16y ago
  So... lie. If they want dishonesty, just ask for it.
  - dennisgorelik 16y ago
    The manager wanted to see 40 hours reported against his main project. He did not want dishonesty, but probably would not mind some tweaking in how work activities are categorised in a timesheet.