4 ms·

The Call of the Ocean: Hypertext, Universal and Open (1988)

63 points by kick 7y ago

cryo 7y ago
"[Read] everything from Ted Nelson" – Joe Armstrong Keynote: The Forgotten Ideas in Computer Science - Code BEAM SF 2018: https://youtu.be/-I_jE0l7sYQ?t=2002 https://youtu.be/-I_jE0l7sYQ?t=2002
- kick 7y ago
  Ted Nelson is my favorite example of a—smart, no doubt—man who can have all of the right ideas* yet see no real success in his personal career. I hope he sees a little more appreciation before he goes; maybe visual connections will take off, or a ZigZag-clone. *His ideas on DRM don't count: too far after his time.
  - nabla9 7y ago
    Reason for his non-success is clear. Nelson called for universal and open, but his Xandadu project was closed and ZigZag algorithm patented. He wanted to own and control the hypertex and sell the applications that use it. He made some moves to open it up when it was too late.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - PinkMilkshake 7y ago
    I think the rule of being the "idea guy" applies to Ted Nelson as much as it applies to anyone else.
jake-low 7y ago
Fascinating read. Nelson’s ideas of an open universal hypertext system is in many was incredibly prescient of our modern web. But one thing he (and others) got wrong(1) is the concept of backlinks: the ability of a user to see, for any page, a list of other pages (including those by other authors) which link to it. It’s hard for me to imagine what the web of today would look like with this feature. Ignoring the (probably insurmountable) technical problems, I wonder what would happen if backlinks became available to web users today. How would it change the way we interact with and design websites? (1): perhaps “foresaw differently” is more charitable since Nelson acknowledges that many systems do not include the feature and is arguing that the system of the future should.
- DonHopkins 7y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webmention https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webmention https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Webmention https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Webmenti... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pingback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pingback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Pingback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Pingback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linkback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linkback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Linkback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Linkback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Refback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Refback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trackback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trackback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Trackback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Trackbac... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvFjtKPNfNE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvFjtKPNfNE
- pjc50 7y ago
  The early 2000s blog community invented "trackback" for that purpose, but what Nelson didn't forsee was the inevitable problem of a truly open system: spam and other abuse.
  - Firadeoclus 7y ago
    Indeed, what is possible to do in a private or moderated/curated web is quite different from the limits of an open web.
DonHopkins 7y ago
Ted Nelson: Computer Lib / Dream Machines (1975) [pdf] (worrydream.com) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19249556 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19249556 http://worrydream.com/refs/Nelson-ComputerLibDreamMachines1975.pdf http://worrydream.com/refs/Nelson-ComputerLibDreamMachines19... For what it's worth, YC is helping Ted Nelson sell his "Computer Lib / Dream Machines" book: https://twitter.com/nolimits/status/1087770718878687232 https://twitter.com/nolimits/status/1087770718878687232 This book is a truly unique and is worth owning in hardcopy format. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19058137 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19058137 Ted versus The Media Lab [video] (youtube.com) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22169775 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22169775 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qH4Kr3Gsadc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qH4Kr3Gsadc Interview with Ted Nelson (notion.so) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19057331 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19057331 https://www.notion.so/tools-and-craft/03-ted-nelson https://www.notion.so/tools-and-craft/03-ted-nelson Ted Nelson on What Modern Programmers Can Learn from the Past [video] (ieee.org) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16222520 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16222520 https://spectrum.ieee.org/video/geek-life/profiles/ted-nelson-on-what-modern-programmers-can-learn-from-the-past https://spectrum.ieee.org/video/geek-life/profiles/ted-nelso... Ted Nelson struggles with uncomprehending radio interviewer (1979) [audio] (youtube.com) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17376753 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17376753 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVU62CQTXFI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVU62CQTXFI Ted Nelson’s published papers on computers and interaction, 1965 to 1977 (archive.org) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16245697 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16245697 https://archive.org/details/SelectedPapers1977 https://archive.org/details/SelectedPapers1977 Ask HN: What is the best resource for understanding Ted Nelson's ZigZag? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22518401 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22518401 http://www.xanadu.com.au/ted/XUsurvey/xuDation.html http://www.xanadu.com.au/ted/XUsurvey/xuDation.html http://mimix.io/getting-to-xanadu http://mimix.io/getting-to-xanadu Alan Kay's tribute to Ted Nelson at "Intertwingled" Fest (how the script of Tron was the first movie script to ever be edited by a word processing program, on the Alto computer) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnrlSqtpOkw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnrlSqtpOkw "Silicon Valley Story" — a Very Short Romantic Comedy by Ted Nelson A playful story about the microcircuitry of love, with Ted Nelson as an absentminded genius, featuring Doug Engelbart as Ted's father and Stewart Brand as the villainous CEO. Closing song: "Information Flow", sung by Donna Spitzer and the auteur. With Timothy Leary as the Good Venture Capitalist! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXlyMrv8_dQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXlyMrv8_dQ Ted Nelson's Channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr_DXJ7ZUAJO_d8CnHYTDMQ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr_DXJ7ZUAJO_d8CnHYTDMQ
sproketboy 7y ago
If Apple understood the concept of network Hypercard would have been a killer app back in the 80's. Glad that didn't happen though.

63 points by kick 7y ago

cryo 7y ago

"[Read] everything from Ted Nelson" – Joe Armstrong Keynote: The Forgotten Ideas in Computer Science - Code BEAM SF 2018: https://youtu.be/-I_jE0l7sYQ?t=2002 https://youtu.be/-I_jE0l7sYQ?t=2002

kick 7y ago
Ted Nelson is my favorite example of a—smart, no doubt—man who can have all of the right ideas* yet see no real success in his personal career. I hope he sees a little more appreciation before he goes; maybe visual connections will take off, or a ZigZag-clone. *His ideas on DRM don't count: too far after his time.
- nabla9 7y ago
  Reason for his non-success is clear. Nelson called for universal and open, but his Xandadu project was closed and ZigZag algorithm patented. He wanted to own and control the hypertex and sell the applications that use it. He made some moves to open it up when it was too late.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- PinkMilkshake 7y ago
  I think the rule of being the "idea guy" applies to Ted Nelson as much as it applies to anyone else.

jake-low 7y ago

Fascinating read. Nelson’s ideas of an open universal hypertext system is in many was incredibly prescient of our modern web. But one thing he (and others) got wrong(1) is the concept of backlinks: the ability of a user to see, for any page, a list of other pages (including those by other authors) which link to it. It’s hard for me to imagine what the web of today would look like with this feature. Ignoring the (probably insurmountable) technical problems, I wonder what would happen if backlinks became available to web users today. How would it change the way we interact with and design websites? (1): perhaps “foresaw differently” is more charitable since Nelson acknowledges that many systems do not include the feature and is arguing that the system of the future should.

DonHopkins 7y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webmention https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webmention https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Webmention https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Webmenti... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pingback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pingback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Pingback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Pingback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linkback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linkback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Linkback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Linkback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Refback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Refback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trackback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trackback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Trackback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Trackbac... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvFjtKPNfNE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvFjtKPNfNE
pjc50 7y ago
The early 2000s blog community invented "trackback" for that purpose, but what Nelson didn't forsee was the inevitable problem of a truly open system: spam and other abuse.
- Firadeoclus 7y ago
  Indeed, what is possible to do in a private or moderated/curated web is quite different from the limits of an open web.

DonHopkins 7y ago

Ted Nelson: Computer Lib / Dream Machines (1975) [pdf] (worrydream.com) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19249556 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19249556 http://worrydream.com/refs/Nelson-ComputerLibDreamMachines1975.pdf http://worrydream.com/refs/Nelson-ComputerLibDreamMachines19... For what it's worth, YC is helping Ted Nelson sell his "Computer Lib / Dream Machines" book: https://twitter.com/nolimits/status/1087770718878687232 https://twitter.com/nolimits/status/1087770718878687232 This book is a truly unique and is worth owning in hardcopy format. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19058137 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19058137 Ted versus The Media Lab [video] (youtube.com) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22169775 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22169775 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qH4Kr3Gsadc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qH4Kr3Gsadc Interview with Ted Nelson (notion.so) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19057331 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19057331 https://www.notion.so/tools-and-craft/03-ted-nelson https://www.notion.so/tools-and-craft/03-ted-nelson Ted Nelson on What Modern Programmers Can Learn from the Past [video] (ieee.org) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16222520 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16222520 https://spectrum.ieee.org/video/geek-life/profiles/ted-nelson-on-what-modern-programmers-can-learn-from-the-past https://spectrum.ieee.org/video/geek-life/profiles/ted-nelso... Ted Nelson struggles with uncomprehending radio interviewer (1979) [audio] (youtube.com) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17376753 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17376753 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVU62CQTXFI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVU62CQTXFI Ted Nelson’s published papers on computers and interaction, 1965 to 1977 (archive.org) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16245697 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16245697 https://archive.org/details/SelectedPapers1977 https://archive.org/details/SelectedPapers1977 Ask HN: What is the best resource for understanding Ted Nelson's ZigZag? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22518401 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22518401 http://www.xanadu.com.au/ted/XUsurvey/xuDation.html http://www.xanadu.com.au/ted/XUsurvey/xuDation.html http://mimix.io/getting-to-xanadu http://mimix.io/getting-to-xanadu Alan Kay's tribute to Ted Nelson at "Intertwingled" Fest (how the script of Tron was the first movie script to ever be edited by a word processing program, on the Alto computer) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnrlSqtpOkw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnrlSqtpOkw "Silicon Valley Story" — a Very Short Romantic Comedy by Ted Nelson A playful story about the microcircuitry of love, with Ted Nelson as an absentminded genius, featuring Doug Engelbart as Ted's father and Stewart Brand as the villainous CEO. Closing song: "Information Flow", sung by Donna Spitzer and the auteur. With Timothy Leary as the Good Venture Capitalist! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXlyMrv8_dQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXlyMrv8_dQ Ted Nelson's Channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr_DXJ7ZUAJO_d8CnHYTDMQ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr_DXJ7ZUAJO_d8CnHYTDMQ

sproketboy 7y ago

If Apple understood the concept of network Hypercard would have been a killer app back in the 80's. Glad that didn't happen though.