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This argument gets used a lot but for some reason people who argue this always forget to finish the thought, specifically why Americans need the threat of tortu

by evan_ 7y ago

This argument gets used a lot but for some reason people who argue this always forget to finish the thought, specifically why Americans need the threat of torturous death to participate in society while people in countries with strong social safety nets do not.

donatj 7y ago
I think there are fair questions about the long term sustainability of such safety nets and what place countries without such nets have in propping these places up. https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Economy/Debt/External/Per-capita https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Economy/Debt...
- geofft 7y ago
  What are those question? I don't see them stated on the page you linked, just some data about external public and private debt.
  - ThrowawayR2 7y ago
    The social democracies can't afford to pay for their own defence, for one thing. Peace makes prosperity possible. Before you brush that off, I'll add that my forebears migrated to the US after having survived WWII and it's aftermath. The current generation takes global peace for granted but anyone who has studied history knows that is not the natural order of things.
    - piva00 7y ago
      So take the lesson that Europe got after WW2: investing in defence is a pointless exercise as it keeps pushing the inevitable until its breaking point, tighter integration, trade and shared experiences are the only way for longer lasting peace. Instead you are telling the world to go back to the pre-WW2 state of affairs and invest in defence, because "that is not the natural order of things". Great, we are humans, we have built a lot of things out of the natural order, I believe we can do better and I'm glad it's become the norm to consider peace as the status quo and not as an outlier, as a mindset it's much healthier for humanity.
    - geofft 7y ago
      Again, not sure how that fits with the chart you posted - the way America funded its participation in World War II is by taking on tons of debt. Also, I hear that China is able to fund its own defense and also provide some sort of social safety net. So did the USSR. Anyway - I'm not advocating "America should be like country X," whether Denmark or China. I very intentionally said we need to figure out how to do this. That's probably going to involve something new, not copying another country, because I do agree things are different when you're a superpower. I also didn't say "we" in the sense of "America" - pandemics don't respect national borders. The failings of China's social safety net are my problem too.

by evan_ 7y ago

donatj 7y ago

I think there are fair questions about the long term sustainability of such safety nets and what place countries without such nets have in propping these places up. https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Economy/Debt/External/Per-capita https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Economy/Debt...

geofft 7y ago
What are those question? I don't see them stated on the page you linked, just some data about external public and private debt.
- ThrowawayR2 7y ago
  The social democracies can't afford to pay for their own defence, for one thing. Peace makes prosperity possible. Before you brush that off, I'll add that my forebears migrated to the US after having survived WWII and it's aftermath. The current generation takes global peace for granted but anyone who has studied history knows that is not the natural order of things.
  - piva00 7y ago
    So take the lesson that Europe got after WW2: investing in defence is a pointless exercise as it keeps pushing the inevitable until its breaking point, tighter integration, trade and shared experiences are the only way for longer lasting peace. Instead you are telling the world to go back to the pre-WW2 state of affairs and invest in defence, because "that is not the natural order of things". Great, we are humans, we have built a lot of things out of the natural order, I believe we can do better and I'm glad it's become the norm to consider peace as the status quo and not as an outlier, as a mindset it's much healthier for humanity.
  - geofft 7y ago
    Again, not sure how that fits with the chart you posted - the way America funded its participation in World War II is by taking on tons of debt. Also, I hear that China is able to fund its own defense and also provide some sort of social safety net. So did the USSR. Anyway - I'm not advocating "America should be like country X," whether Denmark or China. I very intentionally said we need to figure out how to do this. That's probably going to involve something new, not copying another country, because I do agree things are different when you're a superpower. I also didn't say "we" in the sense of "America" - pandemics don't respect national borders. The failings of China's social safety net are my problem too.