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>Also, there really is something special about the remote wilderness, and whatever that something is, the American West exemplifies it. Some people seem to visc

by geggam 7y ago

>Also, there really is something special about the remote wilderness, and whatever that something is, the American West exemplifies it. Some people seem to viscerally need wild spaces; they're part of what make us human, and they remind everyone that you are more of a guest than a landlord on Earth. Interesting how you point out mankind needs nature but in the same breath talk about all the infrastructure. I have an off the grid property with no roads to it (legal easements but nothing improved) yet my nature is marred by a giant substation powering all the civilized parts where people build infrastructure. I can literally hear when the power demand increases from a half a mile away. The irony is you think we demand the govt for something. The govt doesn't produce anything, except waste. If we want a road out here we get a tractor and make one. Here is an example of people producing infrastructure with no govt waste. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Route_6_in_Iowa#River-to-River_Road https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Route_6_in_Iowa#River-to-...

vharuck 7y ago
>The govt doesn't produce anything, except waste. In the Wikipedia article you cite, the state Governor arranged the effort to make the road. How is that not government? I work in state government, and this type of thing (the state coordinates a bunch of private organizations towards a common goal) happens all the time. Do you mean, "the way [my] state government handles contracts always leads to waste"? Because that's something worth discussing. It might sound like I'm splitting hairs because of course people speak in general terms to save time. But I've met too many people who think the government is literally incapable of doing something well.
- geggam 7y ago
  The Governor did nothing but coordinate. Any central known figure can do the same. The government never pays for or produces anything. At best it can be as good as private enterprise coordinating work efforts but usually it is much more inefficient as there is no motive to save money. So yes, all the govt produces is waste.
  - karatestomp 7y ago
    It produces private industry. So there’s that.
    - geggam 7y ago
      No, It does not. Businesses are created by people who offer services / products for trade or money. Govt has nothing to do with that and in many cases (In the US) creates barriers to entry prohibiting private industry
      - karatestomp 7y ago
        > Govt has nothing to do with that and in many cases (In the US) creates barriers to entry prohibiting private industry Nothing. Pretty strong and unorthodox stance. You can't think of a single thing the government does that permits advanced economies to exist? Or any economy, really?
  - limomium 7y ago
    The government IS the central known figure.
PaulDavisThe1st 7y ago
the substation is part of a distributed system which powers the factories that make the truck you likely drive over your (unimproved) roads, not to mention the tractor you say you would use to make another one. it also powers the hospital where you'll end up after an accident or serious illness. it probably powers the building where government functions to act as a counter-weight to the behavior of selfish or ignorant individuals and corporations, because good luck with using your tractor to deal with a large company that decides to pollute your nearest river. they couldn't do that if there was no government (the cry of the pure libertarian)? just look back in history and around the world - this is delusional: there are always power imbalances and there are always people who left unchecked will be bad actors within communities of various sizes. government is above all a solution to the problem of coordination. if you seriously believe that your life doesn't require solving any coordination problems that couldn't be dealt with using the neighborhood (physical) bulletin board, then i don't see how you're reading HN. p.s. I live in an very rural part of New Mexico.
- geggam 7y ago
  fair statements. The point I was going to is there is a balance. The incorporated areas need to understand they need the unincorporated areas and folks need to have a symbiotic relationship. Too many times people try to overlay what works in one area to one it doesnt. Laws try to be global and that simply cannot work. Let the local govts manage their areas and get the federal govt out of managing states. How much of NM is owned by BLM ? In AZ its ridiculous amount.
  - Nasrudith 7y ago
    I have seen that sentiment about the BLM owning too much pushed a lot more following the lengthy velvet glove treatment of the Bundies (anyone in suburban or urban areas would have faced consequences well before millions of dollars in debts or years holding them and fleeing to a remote area would not help). How exactly is the BLM holding vast amounts of marginal land and renting it cheaply a harm? Why is a large wilderness reserve an overstep or threat?

by geggam 7y ago

vharuck 7y ago

>The govt doesn't produce anything, except waste. In the Wikipedia article you cite, the state Governor arranged the effort to make the road. How is that not government? I work in state government, and this type of thing (the state coordinates a bunch of private organizations towards a common goal) happens all the time. Do you mean, "the way [my] state government handles contracts always leads to waste"? Because that's something worth discussing. It might sound like I'm splitting hairs because of course people speak in general terms to save time. But I've met too many people who think the government is literally incapable of doing something well.

geggam 7y ago
The Governor did nothing but coordinate. Any central known figure can do the same. The government never pays for or produces anything. At best it can be as good as private enterprise coordinating work efforts but usually it is much more inefficient as there is no motive to save money. So yes, all the govt produces is waste.
- karatestomp 7y ago
  It produces private industry. So there’s that.
  - geggam 7y ago
    No, It does not. Businesses are created by people who offer services / products for trade or money. Govt has nothing to do with that and in many cases (In the US) creates barriers to entry prohibiting private industry
    - karatestomp 7y ago
      > Govt has nothing to do with that and in many cases (In the US) creates barriers to entry prohibiting private industry Nothing. Pretty strong and unorthodox stance. You can't think of a single thing the government does that permits advanced economies to exist? Or any economy, really?
- limomium 7y ago
  The government IS the central known figure.

PaulDavisThe1st 7y ago

the substation is part of a distributed system which powers the factories that make the truck you likely drive over your (unimproved) roads, not to mention the tractor you say you would use to make another one. it also powers the hospital where you'll end up after an accident or serious illness. it probably powers the building where government functions to act as a counter-weight to the behavior of selfish or ignorant individuals and corporations, because good luck with using your tractor to deal with a large company that decides to pollute your nearest river. they couldn't do that if there was no government (the cry of the pure libertarian)? just look back in history and around the world - this is delusional: there are always power imbalances and there are always people who left unchecked will be bad actors within communities of various sizes. government is above all a solution to the problem of coordination. if you seriously believe that your life doesn't require solving any coordination problems that couldn't be dealt with using the neighborhood (physical) bulletin board, then i don't see how you're reading HN. p.s. I live in an very rural part of New Mexico.

geggam 7y ago
fair statements. The point I was going to is there is a balance. The incorporated areas need to understand they need the unincorporated areas and folks need to have a symbiotic relationship. Too many times people try to overlay what works in one area to one it doesnt. Laws try to be global and that simply cannot work. Let the local govts manage their areas and get the federal govt out of managing states. How much of NM is owned by BLM ? In AZ its ridiculous amount.
- Nasrudith 7y ago
  I have seen that sentiment about the BLM owning too much pushed a lot more following the lengthy velvet glove treatment of the Bundies (anyone in suburban or urban areas would have faced consequences well before millions of dollars in debts or years holding them and fleeing to a remote area would not help). How exactly is the BLM holding vast amounts of marginal land and renting it cheaply a harm? Why is a large wilderness reserve an overstep or threat?