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The article acknowledges that tax rates are significantly higher in Sweden in order to pay for these benefits. Has anyone modeled typical take home income (aft

by dmd149 7y ago

The article acknowledges that tax rates are significantly higher in Sweden in order to pay for these benefits. Has anyone modeled typical take home income (after taxes) over a lifetime vs the costs of procuring similar parental services in each country (daycare for example)? My hypothesis would be that in the US, you’d probably still come out ahead in net income even after paying for these services. Could be wrong of course, but that’s my best guess.

DoreenMichele 7y ago
Some study indicated American parents are extremely stressed out in comparison to most parents in most developed countries and are less happy overall because of it. I'm not sure I could find the study again. It was posted on Metafilter some years ago. I'm banned from Metafilter and have zero plans to spend my time trying to dig through Metafilter to find it.
OzzyB 7y ago
I'm happy to accept your hypothesis that US citizens will come out on top for lifetime net income, but this article was about the human costs, like having children or not. What cost is forgoing having a family? Is that even calculated? My hypothesis is that it's not and all those people that simply weren't able to have a child because of work and healthcare costs are simply, and conveniently, ignored. It's ok though, we can always import more fresh meat into the great American Dream.
- dmd149 7y ago
  The example was about the human costs sure, but very much closely tied to things related to income (job security, costs of child care, etc.). But let’s keep it to the family. Say between the age of 25 and 35 an American will be able to take home an extra 10k per year compared to a Swede. 100k an extra savings goes a long way to being able to take care of a new child or start a family. Not saying my hypothetical is accurate, but the question about take-home pay vs costs is relevant to the topic of this article.
  - quietthrow 7y ago
    It’s thinking like yours on the “uneducated” politicians part that leads to polices like the US has today. Income and money are not everything. But alas, untraveled and relatively speaking closed minded citizenry sees their way as righteous as they are honest and hard working people. It’s a pretty bad side effect of being honest, law abiding and hardworking that you feel your way is the right way and perhaps even justified because of ones struggles. It’s a cycle the promotes more of the same - status quo.
    - dmd149 7y ago
      I have no idea what you’re trying to say. Sounds like: - Americans are uneducated and under-traveled - There are other values other than money - I think my opinions are correct and Americans are deluding themselves Is that correct?
      - quietthrow 7y ago
        Happy to elaborate It’s thinking like yours: families come out ahead by 100k or so on the “uneducated” politicians part: that persists in today’s legislators that leads to polices like the US has today: laws that do not mandate parental benefits. Income and money are not everything: pretty self explanatory. But alas, untraveled and relatively speaking closed minded citizenry: it’s sad that Americans who have not seen diverse perspectives on what else is possible and how others live due to lack of travel (American geography plays a huge role here too) sees their way as righteous: holding the belief that you don’t get parental benefits and yes it’s a hard life but it is what it is and people who don’t agree are lazy (Europeans) and/socialist. as they are honest and hard working people: holds the above mentioned belief very strongly as they are fundamentally people who are had working and honest and hence consider their way makes sense (self confirmation bias) It’s a pretty bad side effect of being honest, law abiding and hardworking that you feel your way is the right way and perhaps even justified because of ones struggles: when one is honest, hardworking , law abiding and plays by the rules a side effect of that is the strengthens of their belief and values whole sale. Which means seeing and accepting a different perspective is harder for them (look at our political divide today for example) It’s a cycle the promotes more of the same - status quo: the cycle of hardworking, honesty, civil obedience that begets strengthening of believing that acceptance of way the things are and change is not needed which reinforce hardworking honesty civil obedience which begets .... you get the idea. This is precisely the reason why change in this country takes a very long time. Almost any big change dosnt happen till after a generation and half has passed. If you have an hour to spare highly recommend watching a documentary about the differences between America and Sweden. If you have amazon prime it’s free to watch on prime video. https://www.amazon.com/Sweden-Lessons-America-Johan-Norberg/dp/B07HNDHL6H https://www.amazon.com/Sweden-Lessons-America-Johan-Norberg/...
kasperni 7y ago
If healthcare is any indicator I wouldn't be so sure. The US is consistently ranked at the bottom of most-efficient healthcare systems. You guys pay so much more per capita then any other nation on the planet [1]. So your taxes might be lower, but you still need to spend the money via other channels. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_hea...
- rootusrootus 7y ago
  Yeah we basically subsidize a huge amount of healthcare technology that gets deployed far cheaper in other places. I wish we'd stop.
- dmd149 7y ago
  Sure. How this manifests on an individual level though can be vastly different. Many employers offer highly subsidized health care as part of compensation. So that + higher salaries my guess is American’s still come out ahead.
  - lotsofpulp 7y ago
    If coming out ahead means having to put a 3 month old in daycare. And worrying about losing your job as you would also lose access to healthcare for the 3 month old. And coming out ahead means pumping breastmilk, when it’s vastly inferior for the mother and much likelier to cause her to lose her milk supply. Edit: the top 10% do very well in the US. The next 10% are hoping to become part of the top 10%. The bottom 80% don’t have a better option.
    - dmd149 7y ago
      Evidence please.
      - lotsofpulp 7y ago
        Which claim? Federal law gives 3 months off from work (if employer has 50 or more employees). There’s like 8 states with 4.5 months off, and 6 weeks for dads. Also might be subject to minimum employer size. And the vast, vast, majority of people don’t work for a high margin tech or finance company with generous leave benefits so I don’t see what the point is talking about them. You’re either part of the group making passive income so you’re not worried about losing your income source, or you’re not.
Swizec 7y ago
I come from Europe and moved to USA. After taxes and everything I get for my taxes back home, USA and EU are roughly the same in “things you have to pay for to have a normal life” Except in Europe I’m not scared of getting sick.
- dmd149 7y ago
  If it’s the same then...it’s the same. One is not better than the other. What country in Europe are you coming from and what makes you afraid of getting sick in the US?
  - Swizec 7y ago
    The problem in USA is spiky unexpected cost of health care. Even with good insurance you never know when a random huge bill might come. Best avoid doctors unless you’re literally dying
    - dmd149 7y ago
      I agree that paying for all health care with insurance leads to quite a bit of surprise billing and opaque pricing. That being said, I’m not sure how often the average person deals with a bill that they are on the hook for beyond their deductible. I’m still not sure what average medical costs per person over a lifetime are in the US compared to a Swedish person’s costs if you’re counting the proportion of their taxes that go to paying for national healthcare. Edit: fixed a typo.
      - lsinger 7y ago
        Example from Germany: I pay 860€ per month for health insurance, which covers me, my wife, and our two children. There’s no deductible. Everything is covered, except for tooth replacements that are covered only at between 20% and 50% I believe. You’ll never get a bill from a doctor or hospital in Germany, except for those tooth replacements. The most I’ll pay is a small copay for drugs, usually about 5€, but only for adults — drugs for kids are covered 100%. Probably a bit simplified, but the above has been my experience so far (I’m 40).

by dmd149 7y ago

DoreenMichele 7y ago

Some study indicated American parents are extremely stressed out in comparison to most parents in most developed countries and are less happy overall because of it. I'm not sure I could find the study again. It was posted on Metafilter some years ago. I'm banned from Metafilter and have zero plans to spend my time trying to dig through Metafilter to find it.

OzzyB 7y ago

I'm happy to accept your hypothesis that US citizens will come out on top for lifetime net income, but this article was about the human costs, like having children or not. What cost is forgoing having a family? Is that even calculated? My hypothesis is that it's not and all those people that simply weren't able to have a child because of work and healthcare costs are simply, and conveniently, ignored. It's ok though, we can always import more fresh meat into the great American Dream.

dmd149 7y ago
The example was about the human costs sure, but very much closely tied to things related to income (job security, costs of child care, etc.). But let’s keep it to the family. Say between the age of 25 and 35 an American will be able to take home an extra 10k per year compared to a Swede. 100k an extra savings goes a long way to being able to take care of a new child or start a family. Not saying my hypothetical is accurate, but the question about take-home pay vs costs is relevant to the topic of this article.
- quietthrow 7y ago
  It’s thinking like yours on the “uneducated” politicians part that leads to polices like the US has today. Income and money are not everything. But alas, untraveled and relatively speaking closed minded citizenry sees their way as righteous as they are honest and hard working people. It’s a pretty bad side effect of being honest, law abiding and hardworking that you feel your way is the right way and perhaps even justified because of ones struggles. It’s a cycle the promotes more of the same - status quo.
  - dmd149 7y ago
    I have no idea what you’re trying to say. Sounds like: - Americans are uneducated and under-traveled - There are other values other than money - I think my opinions are correct and Americans are deluding themselves Is that correct?
    - quietthrow 7y ago
      Happy to elaborate It’s thinking like yours: families come out ahead by 100k or so on the “uneducated” politicians part: that persists in today’s legislators that leads to polices like the US has today: laws that do not mandate parental benefits. Income and money are not everything: pretty self explanatory. But alas, untraveled and relatively speaking closed minded citizenry: it’s sad that Americans who have not seen diverse perspectives on what else is possible and how others live due to lack of travel (American geography plays a huge role here too) sees their way as righteous: holding the belief that you don’t get parental benefits and yes it’s a hard life but it is what it is and people who don’t agree are lazy (Europeans) and/socialist. as they are honest and hard working people: holds the above mentioned belief very strongly as they are fundamentally people who are had working and honest and hence consider their way makes sense (self confirmation bias) It’s a pretty bad side effect of being honest, law abiding and hardworking that you feel your way is the right way and perhaps even justified because of ones struggles: when one is honest, hardworking , law abiding and plays by the rules a side effect of that is the strengthens of their belief and values whole sale. Which means seeing and accepting a different perspective is harder for them (look at our political divide today for example) It’s a cycle the promotes more of the same - status quo: the cycle of hardworking, honesty, civil obedience that begets strengthening of believing that acceptance of way the things are and change is not needed which reinforce hardworking honesty civil obedience which begets .... you get the idea. This is precisely the reason why change in this country takes a very long time. Almost any big change dosnt happen till after a generation and half has passed. If you have an hour to spare highly recommend watching a documentary about the differences between America and Sweden. If you have amazon prime it’s free to watch on prime video. https://www.amazon.com/Sweden-Lessons-America-Johan-Norberg/dp/B07HNDHL6H https://www.amazon.com/Sweden-Lessons-America-Johan-Norberg/...

kasperni 7y ago

If healthcare is any indicator I wouldn't be so sure. The US is consistently ranked at the bottom of most-efficient healthcare systems. You guys pay so much more per capita then any other nation on the planet [1]. So your taxes might be lower, but you still need to spend the money via other channels. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_hea...

rootusrootus 7y ago
Yeah we basically subsidize a huge amount of healthcare technology that gets deployed far cheaper in other places. I wish we'd stop.
dmd149 7y ago
Sure. How this manifests on an individual level though can be vastly different. Many employers offer highly subsidized health care as part of compensation. So that + higher salaries my guess is American’s still come out ahead.
- lotsofpulp 7y ago
  If coming out ahead means having to put a 3 month old in daycare. And worrying about losing your job as you would also lose access to healthcare for the 3 month old. And coming out ahead means pumping breastmilk, when it’s vastly inferior for the mother and much likelier to cause her to lose her milk supply. Edit: the top 10% do very well in the US. The next 10% are hoping to become part of the top 10%. The bottom 80% don’t have a better option.
  - dmd149 7y ago
    Evidence please.
    - lotsofpulp 7y ago
      Which claim? Federal law gives 3 months off from work (if employer has 50 or more employees). There’s like 8 states with 4.5 months off, and 6 weeks for dads. Also might be subject to minimum employer size. And the vast, vast, majority of people don’t work for a high margin tech or finance company with generous leave benefits so I don’t see what the point is talking about them. You’re either part of the group making passive income so you’re not worried about losing your income source, or you’re not.

Swizec 7y ago

I come from Europe and moved to USA. After taxes and everything I get for my taxes back home, USA and EU are roughly the same in “things you have to pay for to have a normal life” Except in Europe I’m not scared of getting sick.

dmd149 7y ago
If it’s the same then...it’s the same. One is not better than the other. What country in Europe are you coming from and what makes you afraid of getting sick in the US?
- Swizec 7y ago
  The problem in USA is spiky unexpected cost of health care. Even with good insurance you never know when a random huge bill might come. Best avoid doctors unless you’re literally dying
  - dmd149 7y ago
    I agree that paying for all health care with insurance leads to quite a bit of surprise billing and opaque pricing. That being said, I’m not sure how often the average person deals with a bill that they are on the hook for beyond their deductible. I’m still not sure what average medical costs per person over a lifetime are in the US compared to a Swedish person’s costs if you’re counting the proportion of their taxes that go to paying for national healthcare. Edit: fixed a typo.
    - lsinger 7y ago
      Example from Germany: I pay 860€ per month for health insurance, which covers me, my wife, and our two children. There’s no deductible. Everything is covered, except for tooth replacements that are covered only at between 20% and 50% I believe. You’ll never get a bill from a doctor or hospital in Germany, except for those tooth replacements. The most I’ll pay is a small copay for drugs, usually about 5€, but only for adults — drugs for kids are covered 100%. Probably a bit simplified, but the above has been my experience so far (I’m 40).