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> You literally can't start an airline from scratch. Gonna need a citation on this one. I would guess the actual reason airlines are hard to start from scratch

> You literally can't start an airline from scratch. Gonna need a citation on this one. I would guess the actual reason airlines are hard to start from scratch is the massive capital required, but would be interested in having this guess proven incorrect. Porter Airlines in Canada (which presumably has a very similar regulatory regime) was started from scratch about 20 years ago.

vvanders 7y ago
You can also do like Kenmore Air and just land on the nearest body of water.
wolco 7y ago
Very small airline. They have 29 planes that can hold 74 people. American airlines (including regional partnerships has 1700).
- SECProto 7y ago
  Few notes there: * The parent comment didn't caveat "large airline". * Porter is the third-largest airline in Canada. Canada has 10% of the population of the US, so our airlines will be accordingly smaller. * American Airlines is the largest airline in North America [1], serves the entire country + international. Really not a reasonable comparison to a regional domestic airline. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_airlines_in_North_America https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_airlines_in_No...
  - wolco 7y ago
    That speaks to the lack of airlines in Canada if the third largest has 74 max people and 29 planes.
    - SECProto 7y ago
      > That speaks to the lack of airlines in Canada if the third largest has 74 max people and 29 planes. No, it speaks to the population of Canada... Porter still comes in at 18th largest in North America [1] (It might also be because each of the two large carriers, Air Canada and WestJet, has a number of subsidiaries/wholly owned sub brands which would each be larger than Porter - eg Air Canada Rouge, WestJet Encore) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_airlines_in_North_America#By_fleet_size https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_airlines_in_No...
mcarmichael 7y ago
Porter Airlines appears to have started in an entirely unique regulatory regime, actually: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porter_Airlines In particular, airline monopoly control over allocation of terminal resources at an airport is not a useful prerequisite to generalize from.
- SECProto 7y ago
  > Porter Airlines appears to have started in an entirely unique regulatory regime, actually I did a quick skim of that wiki article (skimmed a couple sections, ctrl+f'd for "regulat" and "monopoly"), but couldn't find anything about a unique regulatory regime. There has been regulatory issues with the Toronto Island Airport (where porter wants to extend the runway to allow jets to land, but no one* else wants this), but I don't see where they required a unique regulatory regime?
  - closeparen 7y ago
    No one wanted it because it would have meant more flights. That's precisely my point. There is no such thing as new traffic capacity anymore. You can only take it from someone else.
    - SECProto 7y ago
      > There is no such thing as new traffic capacity anymore. You can only take it from someone else. JetBlue started in the late 90s, and according to the wiki [0], "was awarded 75 takeoff/landing slots". Sunwing Airlines [1] started about 15 years ago, with departures from Toronto Pearson. They targeted the southern vacation niche. I don't know the details of the traffic capacity at Pearson, but they didn't get their landing slots by buying some other airline. I'm not disagreeing with your comment about the limitations of dividing up a limited resource - many airports in North America are at capacity, and there's no room there for new competition to start up. But you followed it up with an absolute "You literally can't start an airline from scratch", which I took issue with because there are several examples that disprove it. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JetBlue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JetBlue [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunwing_Airlines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunwing_Airlines
closeparen 7y ago
Porter tried to go around the problem by partnering with the government to revive a disused island airport, accessible only by ferry. Part of the deal was going to be a bridge. The community organized vigorously against the prospect of new flights, and succeeded in kneecapping Porter by killing the bridge. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porter_Airlines#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porter_Airlines#History

vvanders 7y ago

You can also do like Kenmore Air and just land on the nearest body of water.

wolco 7y ago

Very small airline. They have 29 planes that can hold 74 people. American airlines (including regional partnerships has 1700).

SECProto 7y ago
Few notes there: * The parent comment didn't caveat "large airline". * Porter is the third-largest airline in Canada. Canada has 10% of the population of the US, so our airlines will be accordingly smaller. * American Airlines is the largest airline in North America [1], serves the entire country + international. Really not a reasonable comparison to a regional domestic airline. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_airlines_in_North_America https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_airlines_in_No...
- wolco 7y ago
  That speaks to the lack of airlines in Canada if the third largest has 74 max people and 29 planes.
  - SECProto 7y ago
    > That speaks to the lack of airlines in Canada if the third largest has 74 max people and 29 planes. No, it speaks to the population of Canada... Porter still comes in at 18th largest in North America [1] (It might also be because each of the two large carriers, Air Canada and WestJet, has a number of subsidiaries/wholly owned sub brands which would each be larger than Porter - eg Air Canada Rouge, WestJet Encore) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_airlines_in_North_America#By_fleet_size https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_airlines_in_No...

mcarmichael 7y ago

Porter Airlines appears to have started in an entirely unique regulatory regime, actually: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porter_Airlines In particular, airline monopoly control over allocation of terminal resources at an airport is not a useful prerequisite to generalize from.

SECProto 7y ago
> Porter Airlines appears to have started in an entirely unique regulatory regime, actually I did a quick skim of that wiki article (skimmed a couple sections, ctrl+f'd for "regulat" and "monopoly"), but couldn't find anything about a unique regulatory regime. There has been regulatory issues with the Toronto Island Airport (where porter wants to extend the runway to allow jets to land, but no one* else wants this), but I don't see where they required a unique regulatory regime?
- closeparen 7y ago
  No one wanted it because it would have meant more flights. That's precisely my point. There is no such thing as new traffic capacity anymore. You can only take it from someone else.
  - SECProto 7y ago
    > There is no such thing as new traffic capacity anymore. You can only take it from someone else. JetBlue started in the late 90s, and according to the wiki [0], "was awarded 75 takeoff/landing slots". Sunwing Airlines [1] started about 15 years ago, with departures from Toronto Pearson. They targeted the southern vacation niche. I don't know the details of the traffic capacity at Pearson, but they didn't get their landing slots by buying some other airline. I'm not disagreeing with your comment about the limitations of dividing up a limited resource - many airports in North America are at capacity, and there's no room there for new competition to start up. But you followed it up with an absolute "You literally can't start an airline from scratch", which I took issue with because there are several examples that disprove it. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JetBlue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JetBlue [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunwing_Airlines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunwing_Airlines

closeparen 7y ago

Porter tried to go around the problem by partnering with the government to revive a disused island airport, accessible only by ferry. Part of the deal was going to be a bridge. The community organized vigorously against the prospect of new flights, and succeeded in kneecapping Porter by killing the bridge. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porter_Airlines#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porter_Airlines#History