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>>Even before all of this tech, if you looked suspicious you would get stopped or worse. Tech is IMPROVING our lives. Software is an enabler, it solves our pro

by maram 7y ago

>>Even before all of this tech, if you looked suspicious you would get stopped or worse. Tech is IMPROVING our lives. Software is an enabler, it solves our problems. If the software is making our problems worse, then there is something wrong with the software, we fix the software. But the issue here isn't the software, the issue here is privacy invasion. Terms of Use and Privacy Policy aren't comprehensive enough to inform users what they are doing or how and when they are collecting their personal data. From the story “I didn’t realize that by having location services on that Google was also keeping a log of where I was going, I’m sure it’s in their terms of service but I never read through those walls of text, and I don’t think most people do either.” McCoy said. Steve Jobs had a solution for this: "Privacy means that people know what they’re signing up for. In plain English, and repeatedly. I believe that people are smart. Some people want to share more than others. Ask them...Make them tell you to stop asking them. Let them know what you’re going to do with their data"

Sean-Der 7y ago
Software is neutral, neither good or evil. It only increases our effectiveness of what we were doing before. It has its faults, but I really loved Adam Curtis’s documentary ‘ All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace’. Full of anecdotes, but it is a fun watch!
- samatman 7y ago
  I would modify this: Software increases our effectiveness at what it's applied to. Sometimes, that's what we were doing before. Sometimes it isn't.
  - 6gvONxR4sf7o 7y ago
    Sometimes it changes what we're doing enough that the old way becomes untenable, even if the new way is worse. Like if you take a crappy, mostly okay, sometimes terrible system and make it enough cheaper than the old system that always worked, most of the market may switch to the new shitty cheap thing.
    - samatman 7y ago
      Yes. I occasionally miss the quality of landline phone calls, for one example.
- prophesi 7y ago
  I wouldn't say software is entirely neutral. As you say, they have their faults, and some are designed in a way that lends itself to evil purposes. Openness is the key, as the Steve Jobs quote in a parent comment is saying. Users need to know what's going on, and our clickwrap culture hasn't been cutting it these past two decades.
shadowgovt 7y ago
If it changes the phenomena that trigger false-positives of suspicion towards "was actually present near the scene of the crime" and away from "wrong skin color in the neighborhood," it can be argued the tech has improved people's lives.
- maram 7y ago
  >>it can be argued the tech has improved people's lives. I have a problem with general cynicism toward technology. I believe the core problem we have with tech is all about privacy. We are on the fringe of a golden era, and we should resolve these issues about privacy and dark UX that deceive users. We don't need to "argue" whether tech improved our lives. It already did!! When did we ever in the history of mankind had the chance to communicate, and access information in real-time?!
- rak 7y ago
  The problem is that it isn't. The police have routinely conducted similar dragnets with racial profiling in the past. Even in systems with less human intervention (e.g automated loan approval systems) bias is still being built in. If anything this could provide people with the excuse of "see! it was the algorithm!".
  - TuringNYC 7y ago
    >> Even in systems with less human intervention (e.g automated loan approval systems) bias is still being built in. Just because there is bias in the system does not mean it is OK to open the floodgates and introduce more >> If anything this could provide people with the excuse of "see! it was the algorithm!". It doesn't work that way. First the person has to come up with tens of thousands of dollars to defend themselves and hire lawyers and expert witnesses. What you are stating is just a luxury of the rich. If the new system is that rich people get extra avenues of defense, you are right.
  - shadowgovt 7y ago
    > The police have routinely conducted similar dragnets with racial profiling in the past How does the geofence-based system to determine whether you were in the area of a crime when it was committed know what race you are? I'm suggesting that in the absence of a tool like this, cops will use their eyeballs and knock on doors, and we already know that process is racially biased.
lgats 7y ago
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2011/03/technology-is-not-the-answer/73065/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2011/03/techn...
djwhsbxh 7y ago
What counts as a problem is hardly so clearly defined, usually it's a matter of politics. You say it's a privacy issue but another person could say it's a precision issue and be no less wrong. After all, had the police used a more precise form of software surveillance they probably would have been able to find the right person.
CPLX 7y ago
> Tech is IMPROVING our lives. Software is an enabler, it solves our problems. Oh good. Glad to see we have that sorted out.
kohtatsu 7y ago
I read that in his voice. Rest in peace <3
chiefalchemist 7y ago
> Tech is IMPROVING our lives. Yes. But not without also creating significant dangers, frictions, and negatives. Either way, it is safe to say Tech is a magnifier. It all depends on whose hands it's in and how they're using it.
GaryNumanVevo 7y ago
Technology is a tool, same as I can chop down a tree with an Axe, I can chop down a person.
x86_64Ubuntu 7y ago
I don't mean to be rude, but you really haven't said much in the way of OP or the article. All you've said is that tech is good. I'm not sure anyone in this forum would disagree with that comment, but what about privacy implications, and the horrors of being hauled through the court system because some third party fingered you as being somewhere at some time.
- 6gvONxR4sf7o 7y ago
  >All you've said is that tech is good. I'm not sure anyone in this forum would disagree with that comment... I'm sure plenty would disagree, myself included. Tech is not blanket good. It can be good, it can be bad. It depends on the tech, and even then it's not always one or the other.
- maram 7y ago
  I said it in the first paragraph. “But the issue here isn't the software, the issue here is privacy invasion. Terms of Use and Privacy Policy aren't comprehensive enough to inform users what they are doing or how and when they are collecting their personal data.”
Noos 7y ago
I didn't intend to say it was good or bad. My point is more that technology won't eliminate the kind of thing the OP suffered, because you can simply just hang around the area in a police car or ask the neighbors. It may make it more efficient, but neighbors have been calling the cops on people quite all right without cell phones. The main issue is the nature and cost of the legal system if you are accused, which is less privacy and more protection.
alfiedotwtf 7y ago
> Tech is IMPROVING our lives Sadly, it’s also improving the police state

by maram 7y ago

Sean-Der 7y ago

Software is neutral, neither good or evil. It only increases our effectiveness of what we were doing before. It has its faults, but I really loved Adam Curtis’s documentary ‘ All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace’. Full of anecdotes, but it is a fun watch!

samatman 7y ago
I would modify this: Software increases our effectiveness at what it's applied to. Sometimes, that's what we were doing before. Sometimes it isn't.
- 6gvONxR4sf7o 7y ago
  Sometimes it changes what we're doing enough that the old way becomes untenable, even if the new way is worse. Like if you take a crappy, mostly okay, sometimes terrible system and make it enough cheaper than the old system that always worked, most of the market may switch to the new shitty cheap thing.
  - samatman 7y ago
    Yes. I occasionally miss the quality of landline phone calls, for one example.
prophesi 7y ago
I wouldn't say software is entirely neutral. As you say, they have their faults, and some are designed in a way that lends itself to evil purposes. Openness is the key, as the Steve Jobs quote in a parent comment is saying. Users need to know what's going on, and our clickwrap culture hasn't been cutting it these past two decades.

shadowgovt 7y ago

If it changes the phenomena that trigger false-positives of suspicion towards "was actually present near the scene of the crime" and away from "wrong skin color in the neighborhood," it can be argued the tech has improved people's lives.

maram 7y ago
>>it can be argued the tech has improved people's lives. I have a problem with general cynicism toward technology. I believe the core problem we have with tech is all about privacy. We are on the fringe of a golden era, and we should resolve these issues about privacy and dark UX that deceive users. We don't need to "argue" whether tech improved our lives. It already did!! When did we ever in the history of mankind had the chance to communicate, and access information in real-time?!
rak 7y ago
The problem is that it isn't. The police have routinely conducted similar dragnets with racial profiling in the past. Even in systems with less human intervention (e.g automated loan approval systems) bias is still being built in. If anything this could provide people with the excuse of "see! it was the algorithm!".
- TuringNYC 7y ago
  >> Even in systems with less human intervention (e.g automated loan approval systems) bias is still being built in. Just because there is bias in the system does not mean it is OK to open the floodgates and introduce more >> If anything this could provide people with the excuse of "see! it was the algorithm!". It doesn't work that way. First the person has to come up with tens of thousands of dollars to defend themselves and hire lawyers and expert witnesses. What you are stating is just a luxury of the rich. If the new system is that rich people get extra avenues of defense, you are right.
- shadowgovt 7y ago
  > The police have routinely conducted similar dragnets with racial profiling in the past How does the geofence-based system to determine whether you were in the area of a crime when it was committed know what race you are? I'm suggesting that in the absence of a tool like this, cops will use their eyeballs and knock on doors, and we already know that process is racially biased.

lgats 7y ago

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2011/03/technology-is-not-the-answer/73065/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2011/03/techn...

djwhsbxh 7y ago

What counts as a problem is hardly so clearly defined, usually it's a matter of politics. You say it's a privacy issue but another person could say it's a precision issue and be no less wrong. After all, had the police used a more precise form of software surveillance they probably would have been able to find the right person.

CPLX 7y ago

> Tech is IMPROVING our lives. Software is an enabler, it solves our problems. Oh good. Glad to see we have that sorted out.

kohtatsu 7y ago

I read that in his voice. Rest in peace <3

chiefalchemist 7y ago

> Tech is IMPROVING our lives. Yes. But not without also creating significant dangers, frictions, and negatives. Either way, it is safe to say Tech is a magnifier. It all depends on whose hands it's in and how they're using it.

GaryNumanVevo 7y ago

Technology is a tool, same as I can chop down a tree with an Axe, I can chop down a person.

x86_64Ubuntu 7y ago

I don't mean to be rude, but you really haven't said much in the way of OP or the article. All you've said is that tech is good. I'm not sure anyone in this forum would disagree with that comment, but what about privacy implications, and the horrors of being hauled through the court system because some third party fingered you as being somewhere at some time.

6gvONxR4sf7o 7y ago
>All you've said is that tech is good. I'm not sure anyone in this forum would disagree with that comment... I'm sure plenty would disagree, myself included. Tech is not blanket good. It can be good, it can be bad. It depends on the tech, and even then it's not always one or the other.
maram 7y ago
I said it in the first paragraph. “But the issue here isn't the software, the issue here is privacy invasion. Terms of Use and Privacy Policy aren't comprehensive enough to inform users what they are doing or how and when they are collecting their personal data.”

Noos 7y ago

I didn't intend to say it was good or bad. My point is more that technology won't eliminate the kind of thing the OP suffered, because you can simply just hang around the area in a police car or ask the neighbors. It may make it more efficient, but neighbors have been calling the cops on people quite all right without cell phones. The main issue is the nature and cost of the legal system if you are accused, which is less privacy and more protection.

alfiedotwtf 7y ago

> Tech is IMPROVING our lives Sadly, it’s also improving the police state