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> North Americans have often lived on 'the frontier' between civilization and the harsh conditions of the natural world. And FYI said conditions are generally h

> North Americans have often lived on 'the frontier' between civilization and the harsh conditions of the natural world. And FYI said conditions are generally harsher in North America than they are in Europe where distances are shorter, the weather is more temperate etc.. Eh? The USA is right in the middle of the world’s most temperate climate zone, some distances are vast but there are vast tracts of very habitable and fertile land. It has non predatory neighbours at both north and south, and fish on its east and west. In the aftermath of WWII, Iowa was producing 90% of the world’s corn. Throughout its history, the United States has had a level of geographic security unparalleled by any other country in the world. It has never once faced a serious threat to its existence. The US has a geographic endowment like no other. How can you possibly call it living on the frontier?

jariel 7y ago
We are talking about different things. The climate in the US is generally far more harsh than that of Europe. The Med has a beautiful, easy-going climate the whole year. There is no winter, there are no severe storms (or at least they are small ie no Hurricanes), and it's generally not brutally hot. The continent, UK has fairly mild winters and no super aggressive weather. Even the Scandinavian regions - most of their settlements are near the ocean, which makes them much milder than say, Canada. Montreal is further south than Copenhagen (actually, Montreal is the same latitude as Northern Italy!) but Montreal weathers are crushing compared to anything in Denmark. All of these European areas will have been close enough to 'civilization' for 1K years, and usually easy access to some ocean port for transport. The 'New World' was brutal. Winters are rugged, summers can be hot and balmy. Before they could plant crops they had to clear the trees. Aboriginals provided a whole set of other complications (I'm not saying this is fair, just from a certain perspective). Most of South America has it's own harsh charms as well. And the distances are vast - when you're in what is now 'Montana' a little over 100 years ago - you might as well be on the moon. There's no rivers, roads, very sparse rail - no reasonable way in. Crossing the continent was life-threatening. But from an industrial perspective, yes, you are absolutely right: much of North America is ultimately arable, there's no Habsbourg / Napoleonic Empire to throw you off, it's perfect for building an industrial agrarian society. But there's absolutely a 'rugged/independent' nature to North Americans that doesn't quite exist in Europe. The American Revolution was very different from the French Revolution. North Americans have always viewed power as a kind of expression of 'independence' whereas Europeans have always viewed it as some kind of entente between the nobility and the plebes. It's mostly historic, but there are absolutely differences that remain ... Hint: the #1 selling vehicle in the US and Canada is ... a pick-up truck! They don't even have such things in Europe, rather, these little Lorrie/van type things which individuals, for the most part, don't even drive.
- craftinator 7y ago
  Dude, what are you talking about? Are you speaking of the early American Pioneers, who have all died out at least a hundred years ago? A "Rugged/independent nature"??? I just listened to a girl complain to her friend about how the soy milk in her latte leaves a funny aftertaste that she can't figure out how to get rid of. The vast majority of people in the US would be unable to feed, clothe, or sustain themselves if there wasn't a Fred Meyer's or Costco within a 30 minutes drive of their domicile. The USA has the highest percentage of obesity in the world [1]. You mention how us North Americans love trucks, and that somehow supports this rugged view. The majority of people who own big trucks here do so as a status symbol to compete with their neighbors. Don't get me wrong there are still some populations of total badasses here; farming types, country gals/boys, wilderness lovers, hunters, preppers, gun nuts etc... But they make up a very small percentage of our population. Most of us are at the top of the list of helpless metropolitan sheeples. [1] https://ourworldindata.org/obesity https://ourworldindata.org/obesity
  - jariel 7y ago
    Your points don't help your argument. - That most Americans 'couldn't survive in the bush' is obvious, but considerably more North Americans already live in very remote and rugged areas, definitely more than in Europe. There is almost no 'open country' in Europe, whereas maybe 1/2 of North America is wide and vast. Living in rural Montana has essentially no parallel in Europe. - That trucks are 'status symbols' is beside the point - 'everything' is a status symbol (even back in the day), certainly cars are in Europe. The point is they are trucks not cars and they are by and large used quite a lot for 'moving stuff', and travelling on somewhat more rugged terrain. - Obesity rates are irrelevant. Obviously New England has been as urban as Europe since basically the Englightenment, but most of the rest of America is barely tamed. My grandfather was born at the start of the 20th century, most of his relatives and family elders would have lived in the late 19th century when much of North America was still very wild. So much of 'frontier' and 'far rural' North America is just beyond living memory, it wasn't that long ago. My great-grandfather was still clearing trees on the family farm, before plumbing, electricity, radio. They were several days ride from the nearest village of more than 1K people and there were no waterways or rail. He passed away not that long before I was born. The ethos of 'way away from civilization, on the family-owned farm, you'd better be self-sufficient' still colours much of the North American attitude today.

jariel 7y ago

We are talking about different things. The climate in the US is generally far more harsh than that of Europe. The Med has a beautiful, easy-going climate the whole year. There is no winter, there are no severe storms (or at least they are small ie no Hurricanes), and it's generally not brutally hot. The continent, UK has fairly mild winters and no super aggressive weather. Even the Scandinavian regions - most of their settlements are near the ocean, which makes them much milder than say, Canada. Montreal is further south than Copenhagen (actually, Montreal is the same latitude as Northern Italy!) but Montreal weathers are crushing compared to anything in Denmark. All of these European areas will have been close enough to 'civilization' for 1K years, and usually easy access to some ocean port for transport. The 'New World' was brutal. Winters are rugged, summers can be hot and balmy. Before they could plant crops they had to clear the trees. Aboriginals provided a whole set of other complications (I'm not saying this is fair, just from a certain perspective). Most of South America has it's own harsh charms as well. And the distances are vast - when you're in what is now 'Montana' a little over 100 years ago - you might as well be on the moon. There's no rivers, roads, very sparse rail - no reasonable way in. Crossing the continent was life-threatening. But from an industrial perspective, yes, you are absolutely right: much of North America is ultimately arable, there's no Habsbourg / Napoleonic Empire to throw you off, it's perfect for building an industrial agrarian society. But there's absolutely a 'rugged/independent' nature to North Americans that doesn't quite exist in Europe. The American Revolution was very different from the French Revolution. North Americans have always viewed power as a kind of expression of 'independence' whereas Europeans have always viewed it as some kind of entente between the nobility and the plebes. It's mostly historic, but there are absolutely differences that remain ... Hint: the #1 selling vehicle in the US and Canada is ... a pick-up truck! They don't even have such things in Europe, rather, these little Lorrie/van type things which individuals, for the most part, don't even drive.

craftinator 7y ago
Dude, what are you talking about? Are you speaking of the early American Pioneers, who have all died out at least a hundred years ago? A "Rugged/independent nature"??? I just listened to a girl complain to her friend about how the soy milk in her latte leaves a funny aftertaste that she can't figure out how to get rid of. The vast majority of people in the US would be unable to feed, clothe, or sustain themselves if there wasn't a Fred Meyer's or Costco within a 30 minutes drive of their domicile. The USA has the highest percentage of obesity in the world [1]. You mention how us North Americans love trucks, and that somehow supports this rugged view. The majority of people who own big trucks here do so as a status symbol to compete with their neighbors. Don't get me wrong there are still some populations of total badasses here; farming types, country gals/boys, wilderness lovers, hunters, preppers, gun nuts etc... But they make up a very small percentage of our population. Most of us are at the top of the list of helpless metropolitan sheeples. [1] https://ourworldindata.org/obesity https://ourworldindata.org/obesity
- jariel 7y ago
  Your points don't help your argument. - That most Americans 'couldn't survive in the bush' is obvious, but considerably more North Americans already live in very remote and rugged areas, definitely more than in Europe. There is almost no 'open country' in Europe, whereas maybe 1/2 of North America is wide and vast. Living in rural Montana has essentially no parallel in Europe. - That trucks are 'status symbols' is beside the point - 'everything' is a status symbol (even back in the day), certainly cars are in Europe. The point is they are trucks not cars and they are by and large used quite a lot for 'moving stuff', and travelling on somewhat more rugged terrain. - Obesity rates are irrelevant. Obviously New England has been as urban as Europe since basically the Englightenment, but most of the rest of America is barely tamed. My grandfather was born at the start of the 20th century, most of his relatives and family elders would have lived in the late 19th century when much of North America was still very wild. So much of 'frontier' and 'far rural' North America is just beyond living memory, it wasn't that long ago. My great-grandfather was still clearing trees on the family farm, before plumbing, electricity, radio. They were several days ride from the nearest village of more than 1K people and there were no waterways or rail. He passed away not that long before I was born. The ethos of 'way away from civilization, on the family-owned farm, you'd better be self-sufficient' still colours much of the North American attitude today.