5 ms·

> I Have Seen Things It can be a funny experience coming late to pivotal work of popular culture, I somehow managed to miss out on Blade Runner until quite rec

by hanoz 7y ago

> I Have Seen Things It can be a funny experience coming late to pivotal work of popular culture, I somehow managed to miss out on Blade Runner until quite recently, and watching it felt like a putting a missing jigsaw piece into place. Another one I came late to was Anchorman. Suddenly a lifetime's worth of people's odd remarks and affected mannerisms fell into their proper place.

k__ 7y ago
This. It doesn't has to be "young peoples stuff", it's enough that you weren't interested in it decades years ago.
twic 7y ago
One of the things i like about listening to old jazz etc records is that sometimes, you suddenly hear a moment you've heard a thousand times in a hundred hip-hop records, and now you know where that came from.
- sixstringtheory 7y ago
  I just listened to a 99PI episode that goes into the epistemology of song with Who Let the Dogs Out that is a fantastic listen: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/99-invisible/id394775318?i=1000465339110 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/99-invisible/id3947753...
mhd 7y ago
This is getting a bit worse, I think, but it's always been that way. Go further back than your ancient 2004 Anchorman references and you'll get Blade Runner, Star Wars, Princess Bride, etc. One step further and you'll get 2001 (Thus Spoke Zarathustra / Blue Danube / Hal quotes), Citizen Kane ("Rosebud"), Gone with The Wind ("Frankly My Dear...") etc. Sometime after that you'll get people quoting from Shakespeare without seeing the plays (still happens, of course), and soon we'll end at Bible quotes (naturally, as practically no one could even read it), or Roman authors. And I bet someone can point me at writings by those exact Romans where they complain about the youths not being up to par with Plato. I rarely feel odd about a lack of knowledge, as there's just too much to know. Also, you've got the two issues where this is a) just used for meaningless gatekeeping anyway or b) a "cargo cult" meme already. The latter will get more and more common: Quotes and references, where the reference binds you together, not the shared knowledge of the original source.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- jaclaz 7y ago
  >And I bet someone can point me at writings by those exact Romans where they complain about the youths not being up to par with Plato. Well, you asked for it. O tempora, o mores has become a common use Latin phrase (Cicero, 63 or maybe 70 BC) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_tempora_o_mores https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_tempora_o_mores!
  - mhd 7y ago
    That's not specifically about the young not knowing their cultural references anymore, though. People complaining about their offspring in general is as old as time. Although, ironically, a surprising amount of quotes about that aren't sourced properly or dubious in general.
    - jaclaz 7y ago
      See if this fits: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2007.01.0060%3Abook%3D2%3Achapter%3D15%3Asection%3D24 http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%...
      - mhd 7y ago
        That is just awesome.
- AgentMatt 7y ago
  > The latter will get more and more common: Quotes and references, where the reference binds you together, not the shared knowledge of the original source. This opens up the possibility of altering the meaning of the reference. As long as you refer to the original, errors in the reference can be detected by others who also know the reference. They can then point out the error and you can discuss it, or directly check the original source. Hence, since an objective original source exists, it is always possible to recalibrate your references via feedback from reality. So one step of increasing distance from reality may be two people exchanging Shakespeare quotes, who have both not actually read the play it is from, but who still know that it is from a Shakespeare play, and could look up the original source if they cared. In other words, they know of the existence of the original source. Another, further step away from reality would be if those people also lacked the knowledge of the original source (e.g. the Shakespeare play it is from), or even worse, who do not know (or even ask themselves whether) there is an original source. They then take the reference as idiomatic, leaving wide open the possibility of others to attach arbitrary meaning to that reference, without an easy possibility to defend against such distortions of meaning. Another interesting point is that if you know a reference from an original source, you most likely have additional relevant knowledge and context for its interpretation. Whereas if you have only "learned" the reference from others, detached from the context needed for correct interpretation, you risk misinterpreting the reference, basically mutating its meaning. Sorry for going on a tangent here, but I couldn't resist this opportunity to apply some ideas from [0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulacra_and_Simulation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulacra_and_Simulation
JoeDaDude 7y ago
I thought the article was a pop culture reference to the Bladerunner film, specifically, the "Tears in the Rain" speech: "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die."

by hanoz 7y ago

k__ 7y ago

This. It doesn't has to be "young peoples stuff", it's enough that you weren't interested in it decades years ago.

twic 7y ago

One of the things i like about listening to old jazz etc records is that sometimes, you suddenly hear a moment you've heard a thousand times in a hundred hip-hop records, and now you know where that came from.

sixstringtheory 7y ago
I just listened to a 99PI episode that goes into the epistemology of song with Who Let the Dogs Out that is a fantastic listen: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/99-invisible/id394775318?i=1000465339110 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/99-invisible/id3947753...

mhd 7y ago

This is getting a bit worse, I think, but it's always been that way. Go further back than your ancient 2004 Anchorman references and you'll get Blade Runner, Star Wars, Princess Bride, etc. One step further and you'll get 2001 (Thus Spoke Zarathustra / Blue Danube / Hal quotes), Citizen Kane ("Rosebud"), Gone with The Wind ("Frankly My Dear...") etc. Sometime after that you'll get people quoting from Shakespeare without seeing the plays (still happens, of course), and soon we'll end at Bible quotes (naturally, as practically no one could even read it), or Roman authors. And I bet someone can point me at writings by those exact Romans where they complain about the youths not being up to par with Plato. I rarely feel odd about a lack of knowledge, as there's just too much to know. Also, you've got the two issues where this is a) just used for meaningless gatekeeping anyway or b) a "cargo cult" meme already. The latter will get more and more common: Quotes and references, where the reference binds you together, not the shared knowledge of the original source.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
jaclaz 7y ago
>And I bet someone can point me at writings by those exact Romans where they complain about the youths not being up to par with Plato. Well, you asked for it. O tempora, o mores has become a common use Latin phrase (Cicero, 63 or maybe 70 BC) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_tempora_o_mores https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_tempora_o_mores!
- mhd 7y ago
  That's not specifically about the young not knowing their cultural references anymore, though. People complaining about their offspring in general is as old as time. Although, ironically, a surprising amount of quotes about that aren't sourced properly or dubious in general.
  - jaclaz 7y ago
    See if this fits: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2007.01.0060%3Abook%3D2%3Achapter%3D15%3Asection%3D24 http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%...
    - mhd 7y ago
      That is just awesome.
AgentMatt 7y ago
> The latter will get more and more common: Quotes and references, where the reference binds you together, not the shared knowledge of the original source. This opens up the possibility of altering the meaning of the reference. As long as you refer to the original, errors in the reference can be detected by others who also know the reference. They can then point out the error and you can discuss it, or directly check the original source. Hence, since an objective original source exists, it is always possible to recalibrate your references via feedback from reality. So one step of increasing distance from reality may be two people exchanging Shakespeare quotes, who have both not actually read the play it is from, but who still know that it is from a Shakespeare play, and could look up the original source if they cared. In other words, they know of the existence of the original source. Another, further step away from reality would be if those people also lacked the knowledge of the original source (e.g. the Shakespeare play it is from), or even worse, who do not know (or even ask themselves whether) there is an original source. They then take the reference as idiomatic, leaving wide open the possibility of others to attach arbitrary meaning to that reference, without an easy possibility to defend against such distortions of meaning. Another interesting point is that if you know a reference from an original source, you most likely have additional relevant knowledge and context for its interpretation. Whereas if you have only "learned" the reference from others, detached from the context needed for correct interpretation, you risk misinterpreting the reference, basically mutating its meaning. Sorry for going on a tangent here, but I couldn't resist this opportunity to apply some ideas from [0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulacra_and_Simulation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulacra_and_Simulation

JoeDaDude 7y ago

I thought the article was a pop culture reference to the Bladerunner film, specifically, the "Tears in the Rain" speech: "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die."