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> It would be magnificent if we all treated this like a natural disaster We already have massive issues that are an enigmatic and existential crisis in the US:

> It would be magnificent if we all treated this like a natural disaster We already have massive issues that are an enigmatic and existential crisis in the US: 647,457 deaths/year from heart disease. 599,108 deaths/year from cancer. 169,936 deaths/year from accidents. 160,201 deaths/year from respiratory illnesses. 50,00 deaths/year from influenza and another 48,000 deaths/year from suicide. 14 deaths total for Corona Virus. If literally half the American population was infected by the Corona Virus (which is way, way, way higher than any health official estimate puts it), we would have less deaths than we do from heart disease alone. I believe this: our real existential crisis require complex solutions that will take way more than two months. They generally involve making better personal choices: avoiding sugar and fatty/salty foods, not smoking, driving less, getting some exercise, being less stressed, being kinder to each other. But the thing is, when we know the issue and the solution, then we are the problem and it involves looking inward and having a humbling, horrible, daily struggle with the shortcomings we all have. We have to make millions of choices and we will fail making the correct ones most of the time. That's a pretty grim reality. It's quite grating to be constantly recognizing our shortcomings in an effort to self improve. Like the procrastinator who cleans his desk because he doesn't want to sit down and do the hard work, I feel the Corona Virus is a real issue, but at the same time a distraction. Sure, we need to clean our desk, and pay attention to the Corona Virus. But if there's a big problem which is hard to solve and involves looking in, most people will focus on the small problem and look out. A lack of perspective can make a person easily enter into a state of frenzy and uncontrolled fear, especially when others around them are entering it.

RandomBacon 7y ago
> 647,457 deaths/year from heart disease. 599,108 deaths/year from cancer. I think I heard the last time "old age" was listed as cause of death was in the 1980s. There will always be a reason that people die, and we don't live forever. You can't say that if we cured "heart disease", that half a million people wouldn't die. Your comparison of causes of death to the virus is not logical.
- NicolasGorden 7y ago
  The vast majority of those who died from Corona Virus were old. So would you say those also died from old age? I personally wouldn't make that argument, but I'm asking since it would seem to be a necessary conclusion if we follow your path of reasoning. I think a cohesive argument has to be something that can be applied both ways (in favor and against the desired conclusion)
monkeycantype 7y ago
I agree with that. absolutely. all of it You're asking us to be better people, which is a good thing to ask, it should be the goal of our civilisation to be even better people that those who got us here and to leave behind better people that we were. our failure to be >> kinder to each other is part individual selfishness, and partly that we're not brave enough to trust each other, because we know that we do too little collectively to protect each other against the fraction of people who would exploit our kindness. So we're buying toilet paper, getting ready to hunker down and hide. We could fix this virus in two months with discipline and cooperation, and make a start on your list too. The fear of this virus, in relation to the threat is way off the plot compared to our our response to those other dangers. But I am frightened by it and other people seem to be too. I have a whole bunch of incomplete thoughts about maybe i / we can can use that fear constructively, and treat the next two months as a short course on how to recognise when I am acting in a way that is following patterns and norms, when there are other better choices
- NicolasGorden 7y ago
  I love what you wrote. Everything except the using fear part. I also love the honesty of using the word 'frightened by it'. That's what people are feeling and it's absolutely real. I can feel it in people when they talk about it. Being frightened is no joke, nor would I make fun of the feeling. My whole point was to highlight it being irrational. I don't share it. And I don't share it not because I'm special, but because I'm disconnected. When people are happy in a group and the feeling is contagiously moving through a room, I have a hard time getting 'in with it'. So I'm not taking credit for being disconnected, nor am I bragging about it, just explaining that I am, and therefore less likely to become infected with the feelings that seem to virally move through communities who are well connected. But I do think we've accepted fear when we shouldn't. I love the stoics, who seem to think we need to accept fate more than our society seems to view it. In terms of using fear, let me quote one of histories greats, who said it better than I could ever say it: https://youtu.be/nHFTtz3uucY?t=25 https://youtu.be/nHFTtz3uucY?t=25
  - monkeycantype 7y ago
    I don't read anything mocking or hostile in your tone. You're calling attention to an obvious contradiction in our emotional response to different kinds of risk. The using the fear part wasn't well articulated, I had a small person climbing on me, i may not be able to articulate it better now either: emotions seem to be most productive when we allow them to call attention to something, and perhaps to direct our action in a fast moving situation, but not in a slow moving circumstance like this where we have time to respond rationally. The terrible thing is how often we fail to make that transition from emotion to rational action, instead we stifle the emotion until it cannot be stifled, at which point we let emotion run us. I see people must be frightened - otherwise why are they buying out the masks and toilet paper? That hording is happening in private - without an FDR to give us the social license to take more rational action we are doing nothing in public. The only public action people seem to be taking is to withdraw. Hong Kong, where people are wearing masks and maintaining good hygiene is at only had 108 cases. Meanwhile on Friday I had colleagues sick at their desks with flu like symptoms, some fresh back from overseas travel, and no-one saying a damn thing to them about it. If we all wore gloves and masks starting tomorrow, we could put in a booking tomorrow with a struggling bar or restaurant for a corona's over party in two months time. But that's not going to happen. So I am frightened that like the person who doesn't stop smoking, drinking, and eating shitty processed bacon-yums, I'm worried we are going to sleepwalk into the horrible moment when we are overwhelmed and driven by fear, and that is a path to an avoidable pandemic. So that's what I mean by using the fear, recognising it and transitioning to rational action to address the fear. You've also questioned whether the risk of this virus - even in the worst case - is significant enough to stimulate this level of fear: I live in an unusual small town on the coast. This is where most of the medical staff from the major hospital in the city 30 minutes away live. Family and friends work in the local emergency ward. This town skews older than most, if feels like half the town are retirees - we have five podiatry clinics. Also on the other side of the wetlands is one of the labs where people are working on the virus. So this town is more exposed and vulnerable, and may be harder hit that most if there is significant transfer in the community. However this town is also wealthy, well educated, has serious medical expertise and strong community organisations. So the people around me should be in a good position to respond collectively - I don't know how those potentials resolve. I've had dengue fever, had guns pointed and shot at me (missed), fallen off a cliff (improbably caught a tiny ledge as I slid down the ocean cliff) and been quite emotionally unmoved by my own mortality, not through the meditations of marcus aurelius, there wasn't any struggle there to overcome. So I can understand what you mean about 'not bragging' from this context But not being here to raise my children frightens me. I don't believe stoicism or buddhism offers a convincing way to accept the loss of children, or pain to your children. I think instead you have to come to terms the vulnerability to your own integrity that your children represent. While I was unexpectedly comfortable with not existing, the horror of what my getting sick could mean for them is enough to derange me. So today I'm having a happy day with the kids, we've played legos, and are hanging out in the sun. I think a lot of people at the moment have a small part of their mind ticking over, looking forward a couple of months, not knowing whether this will pass lightly for them, or whether this is something that will push them to derangement - the fear of fear itself - and we look around for leadership to address this fear rationally, but can't see any model for pragmatic preparation but buying toilet paper.

RandomBacon 7y ago

> 647,457 deaths/year from heart disease. 599,108 deaths/year from cancer. I think I heard the last time "old age" was listed as cause of death was in the 1980s. There will always be a reason that people die, and we don't live forever. You can't say that if we cured "heart disease", that half a million people wouldn't die. Your comparison of causes of death to the virus is not logical.

NicolasGorden 7y ago
The vast majority of those who died from Corona Virus were old. So would you say those also died from old age? I personally wouldn't make that argument, but I'm asking since it would seem to be a necessary conclusion if we follow your path of reasoning. I think a cohesive argument has to be something that can be applied both ways (in favor and against the desired conclusion)

monkeycantype 7y ago

I agree with that. absolutely. all of it You're asking us to be better people, which is a good thing to ask, it should be the goal of our civilisation to be even better people that those who got us here and to leave behind better people that we were. our failure to be >> kinder to each other is part individual selfishness, and partly that we're not brave enough to trust each other, because we know that we do too little collectively to protect each other against the fraction of people who would exploit our kindness. So we're buying toilet paper, getting ready to hunker down and hide. We could fix this virus in two months with discipline and cooperation, and make a start on your list too. The fear of this virus, in relation to the threat is way off the plot compared to our our response to those other dangers. But I am frightened by it and other people seem to be too. I have a whole bunch of incomplete thoughts about maybe i / we can can use that fear constructively, and treat the next two months as a short course on how to recognise when I am acting in a way that is following patterns and norms, when there are other better choices

NicolasGorden 7y ago
I love what you wrote. Everything except the using fear part. I also love the honesty of using the word 'frightened by it'. That's what people are feeling and it's absolutely real. I can feel it in people when they talk about it. Being frightened is no joke, nor would I make fun of the feeling. My whole point was to highlight it being irrational. I don't share it. And I don't share it not because I'm special, but because I'm disconnected. When people are happy in a group and the feeling is contagiously moving through a room, I have a hard time getting 'in with it'. So I'm not taking credit for being disconnected, nor am I bragging about it, just explaining that I am, and therefore less likely to become infected with the feelings that seem to virally move through communities who are well connected. But I do think we've accepted fear when we shouldn't. I love the stoics, who seem to think we need to accept fate more than our society seems to view it. In terms of using fear, let me quote one of histories greats, who said it better than I could ever say it: https://youtu.be/nHFTtz3uucY?t=25 https://youtu.be/nHFTtz3uucY?t=25
- monkeycantype 7y ago
  I don't read anything mocking or hostile in your tone. You're calling attention to an obvious contradiction in our emotional response to different kinds of risk. The using the fear part wasn't well articulated, I had a small person climbing on me, i may not be able to articulate it better now either: emotions seem to be most productive when we allow them to call attention to something, and perhaps to direct our action in a fast moving situation, but not in a slow moving circumstance like this where we have time to respond rationally. The terrible thing is how often we fail to make that transition from emotion to rational action, instead we stifle the emotion until it cannot be stifled, at which point we let emotion run us. I see people must be frightened - otherwise why are they buying out the masks and toilet paper? That hording is happening in private - without an FDR to give us the social license to take more rational action we are doing nothing in public. The only public action people seem to be taking is to withdraw. Hong Kong, where people are wearing masks and maintaining good hygiene is at only had 108 cases. Meanwhile on Friday I had colleagues sick at their desks with flu like symptoms, some fresh back from overseas travel, and no-one saying a damn thing to them about it. If we all wore gloves and masks starting tomorrow, we could put in a booking tomorrow with a struggling bar or restaurant for a corona's over party in two months time. But that's not going to happen. So I am frightened that like the person who doesn't stop smoking, drinking, and eating shitty processed bacon-yums, I'm worried we are going to sleepwalk into the horrible moment when we are overwhelmed and driven by fear, and that is a path to an avoidable pandemic. So that's what I mean by using the fear, recognising it and transitioning to rational action to address the fear. You've also questioned whether the risk of this virus - even in the worst case - is significant enough to stimulate this level of fear: I live in an unusual small town on the coast. This is where most of the medical staff from the major hospital in the city 30 minutes away live. Family and friends work in the local emergency ward. This town skews older than most, if feels like half the town are retirees - we have five podiatry clinics. Also on the other side of the wetlands is one of the labs where people are working on the virus. So this town is more exposed and vulnerable, and may be harder hit that most if there is significant transfer in the community. However this town is also wealthy, well educated, has serious medical expertise and strong community organisations. So the people around me should be in a good position to respond collectively - I don't know how those potentials resolve. I've had dengue fever, had guns pointed and shot at me (missed), fallen off a cliff (improbably caught a tiny ledge as I slid down the ocean cliff) and been quite emotionally unmoved by my own mortality, not through the meditations of marcus aurelius, there wasn't any struggle there to overcome. So I can understand what you mean about 'not bragging' from this context But not being here to raise my children frightens me. I don't believe stoicism or buddhism offers a convincing way to accept the loss of children, or pain to your children. I think instead you have to come to terms the vulnerability to your own integrity that your children represent. While I was unexpectedly comfortable with not existing, the horror of what my getting sick could mean for them is enough to derange me. So today I'm having a happy day with the kids, we've played legos, and are hanging out in the sun. I think a lot of people at the moment have a small part of their mind ticking over, looking forward a couple of months, not knowing whether this will pass lightly for them, or whether this is something that will push them to derangement - the fear of fear itself - and we look around for leadership to address this fear rationally, but can't see any model for pragmatic preparation but buying toilet paper.