7 ms·

Also One-Time-Pad is uncrackable and dead simple to program and you can do it with pen and paper. The cat's out of the bag for the baddies.

gph 7y ago
I've seen OTPs described as being a replacement for e2e encryption before, but I just don't see it as actually usable outside of large established organizations (NSA, cartel, etc.) to use for passing short text messages. And even then the usability seems cumbersome enough that they'd only use it when strictly necessary. Am I missing something?
- aianus 7y ago
  I don't see why it's limited to short text messages. Your pre-shared OTP can be a rack of 8TB hard drives delivered to an embassy by the Marine Corps which covers a whole lot of documents and media before it's exhausted.
  - bilekas 7y ago
    Looks like a legit solution to me!
    - undersuit 7y ago
      A 128GB flash drive can provide you with enough padding for... 14000 years of voice recordings.
      - bilekas 7y ago
        I was being facetious ;)
  - pdkl95 7y ago
    Something I really wish existed: a very cheap, pocket key chain size, battery powered USB device that stores crypto keys and OTP pads. The idea is that you set it up (plug it into a PC or phone) with an identity and contact information (in the spirit of vCard). The key feature of the device is that touching two of the devices together should automagically exchange identify information, generate and exchange public keys, and continue filling all available storage with shared noise usable for OTP. Each side generates their own random[1] stream of data and shares it with the other device; both sides then XOR the two streams of data together and stores it locally. After exchanging keys and pads in person, plug the device into a computer like a flash thumbdrive, and (with hypothetical software support) both people can now use the keys for end-to-end encryption without having to worry about authentication, and a utility could perform OTP while keeping track of how much random pad is remaining. If they want more pad, leave the devices plugged in longer. The actual encryption should be performed on the device, so the host computer never sees the keys/pad. As long as crypto is hard to use, people will rely on centralized men in the middle. A key chain dongle that you could simply connect to your friend's dongle for a few seconds (or longer, if desires) is easy. Instead of trying to solve the entire authentication problem with PKI or web-of-trust, you let people solve the authentication problem themselves, using the social skills they already have. Yes, this isn't useful for communicating with someone you cannot meet physically; use some other solution for those situations. (Imagine if this became popular and you could simply go to the local branch of your bank and plug your crypto dongle into a kiosk that generates a few months worth of random pad data so all of your online banking is secured by OTP) [1] OTP requires truly random data, which probably requires some type of hardware entropy generator. Perhaps something like this: http://holdenc.altervista.org/avalanche/ http://holdenc.altervista.org/avalanche/
    - inetknght 7y ago
      > a very cheap, pocket key chain size, battery powered USB device that stores crypto keys and OTP pads. Yubikey fits pretty close, I think. What purpose would you need it to be battery powered if it's USB?
      - magicalhippo 7y ago
        For the physical hand-shake key-exchange mentioned?
      - pdkl95 7y ago
        > Yubikey The Yubikey has similar storage features and is the perfect size and shape. Unfortunately, it's missing the main feature I'm talking about: easy inter-device communication. > What purpose would you need it to be battery powered if it's USB? It needs to be self powered because >> The key feature of the device is that touching two of the devices together I want people to be able to protect their communication with someone simply by meeting them in person and touching their USB crypto devices together. It should be a device someone stores on their person along with their other security devices like their house/car keys. The goal is to make the crypto easy so the individual can use it in situations where they already solved the authentication problem. If exchanging keys with someone depends on something complex like a computer or phone, a lot of people won't use it.
        m-p-3 7y ago
        Keep the device without a battery, and instead rely on a USB battery pack to power it in the field for in-person OTP transfer.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - redler 7y ago
    In Vernor Vinge's A Fire Upon the Deep, traders traffic in cubes of material that acts as a super dense source of pad data. Your communication partner on another ship would have the twin cube, and the two would be synced up and then provide the carrier data stream for video and other content. When your cubestuff is exhausted your secure authenticated comms cease.
- Buttons840 7y ago
  I think what you're missing is that the comment you replied to never suggested OTPs are a replacement for e2e encryption. He only said that we can't take OTPs away from the bad guys. I've mentioned this before, but I'd like to write a children's book that teaches one-time-pads. The book ends with little Jimmy getting hauled away by the feds for doing illegal math. Fun for children and parents! The point of course, is to make clear how futile encryption restrictions are, and to perhaps make people wonder if it's really "the land of a free" when a child can commit a crime by doing some math. Fortunately, I think we're still a ways off from encryption being a crime.
  - bilekas 7y ago
    > I've mentioned this before, but I'd like to write a children's book that teaches one-time-pads. The book ends with little Jimmy getting hauled away by the feds for doing illegal math. Fun for children and parents! I absolutely love this. Animal Farm comes to mind. Please write this, our descendants need those echoes from the past.
bilekas 7y ago
Exactly, the problem for the baddies has been solved since at least 1882 (Frank Miller iirc: Edit Wiki says yes). So this argument about security is obviously just what information they're getting. You can't blame someone for not knowing what they don't know, but lawmakers are supposed to enact laws based on the benefit for their citizens. Seems not to be the case here.
_fizz_buzz_ 7y ago
One-Time pad is not a practical solution in any sense. The key distribution becomes so impractical that there is basically no justification to ever use the one time pad. Also, it's a symmetric encryption algorithm and what you really need for end-to-end encryption in the sense they talk about here is an asymmetric encryption algorithm.
- beisner 7y ago
  I don’t know, is it that impractical for a group of conspirators to meet in person a single time, exchange a bunch of 1TB hard drives with identical one-time pads, and then conduct their business accordingly? Surely that’s enough for a substantial amount of communication. Impractical for large-scale communities of illicit behavior but definitely practical for small groups of people
- A4ET8a8uTh0 7y ago
  Maybe. It really depends on actual use case. I remember reading a case about a drug ring that used half of a dollar bill to ensure that the person courier deals with is the right person.
- yellowapple 7y ago
  Quite a few "asymmetric" encryption schemes are only asymmetric for as long as it takes to get both ends communicating via symmetric encryption. This is, most notably, how SSL/TLS works. In this case, you'd only need the asymmetric encryption to distribute the one-time pads.
  - _fizz_buzz_ 7y ago
    lol, your suggestion is to send a key through asymmetric encryption (which must be definition be as long as the plain text). Then you send an encrypted message. If someone eavesdropped on your key (send through asymmetric encryption) the message is compromised. You might as well send the complete message through asymmetric encryption then. You just wasted bytes and gained nothing in security. The problem with the one time pad is that it opens up a myriad of side channel attacks on the key.

gph 7y ago

I've seen OTPs described as being a replacement for e2e encryption before, but I just don't see it as actually usable outside of large established organizations (NSA, cartel, etc.) to use for passing short text messages. And even then the usability seems cumbersome enough that they'd only use it when strictly necessary. Am I missing something?

aianus 7y ago
I don't see why it's limited to short text messages. Your pre-shared OTP can be a rack of 8TB hard drives delivered to an embassy by the Marine Corps which covers a whole lot of documents and media before it's exhausted.
- bilekas 7y ago
  Looks like a legit solution to me!
  - undersuit 7y ago
    A 128GB flash drive can provide you with enough padding for... 14000 years of voice recordings.
    - bilekas 7y ago
      I was being facetious ;)
- pdkl95 7y ago
  Something I really wish existed: a very cheap, pocket key chain size, battery powered USB device that stores crypto keys and OTP pads. The idea is that you set it up (plug it into a PC or phone) with an identity and contact information (in the spirit of vCard). The key feature of the device is that touching two of the devices together should automagically exchange identify information, generate and exchange public keys, and continue filling all available storage with shared noise usable for OTP. Each side generates their own random[1] stream of data and shares it with the other device; both sides then XOR the two streams of data together and stores it locally. After exchanging keys and pads in person, plug the device into a computer like a flash thumbdrive, and (with hypothetical software support) both people can now use the keys for end-to-end encryption without having to worry about authentication, and a utility could perform OTP while keeping track of how much random pad is remaining. If they want more pad, leave the devices plugged in longer. The actual encryption should be performed on the device, so the host computer never sees the keys/pad. As long as crypto is hard to use, people will rely on centralized men in the middle. A key chain dongle that you could simply connect to your friend's dongle for a few seconds (or longer, if desires) is easy. Instead of trying to solve the entire authentication problem with PKI or web-of-trust, you let people solve the authentication problem themselves, using the social skills they already have. Yes, this isn't useful for communicating with someone you cannot meet physically; use some other solution for those situations. (Imagine if this became popular and you could simply go to the local branch of your bank and plug your crypto dongle into a kiosk that generates a few months worth of random pad data so all of your online banking is secured by OTP) [1] OTP requires truly random data, which probably requires some type of hardware entropy generator. Perhaps something like this: http://holdenc.altervista.org/avalanche/ http://holdenc.altervista.org/avalanche/
  - inetknght 7y ago
    > a very cheap, pocket key chain size, battery powered USB device that stores crypto keys and OTP pads. Yubikey fits pretty close, I think. What purpose would you need it to be battery powered if it's USB?
    - magicalhippo 7y ago
      For the physical hand-shake key-exchange mentioned?
    - pdkl95 7y ago
      > Yubikey The Yubikey has similar storage features and is the perfect size and shape. Unfortunately, it's missing the main feature I'm talking about: easy inter-device communication. > What purpose would you need it to be battery powered if it's USB? It needs to be self powered because >> The key feature of the device is that touching two of the devices together I want people to be able to protect their communication with someone simply by meeting them in person and touching their USB crypto devices together. It should be a device someone stores on their person along with their other security devices like their house/car keys. The goal is to make the crypto easy so the individual can use it in situations where they already solved the authentication problem. If exchanging keys with someone depends on something complex like a computer or phone, a lot of people won't use it.
      - m-p-3 7y ago
        Keep the device without a battery, and instead rely on a USB battery pack to power it in the field for in-person OTP transfer.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- redler 7y ago
  In Vernor Vinge's A Fire Upon the Deep, traders traffic in cubes of material that acts as a super dense source of pad data. Your communication partner on another ship would have the twin cube, and the two would be synced up and then provide the carrier data stream for video and other content. When your cubestuff is exhausted your secure authenticated comms cease.
Buttons840 7y ago
I think what you're missing is that the comment you replied to never suggested OTPs are a replacement for e2e encryption. He only said that we can't take OTPs away from the bad guys. I've mentioned this before, but I'd like to write a children's book that teaches one-time-pads. The book ends with little Jimmy getting hauled away by the feds for doing illegal math. Fun for children and parents! The point of course, is to make clear how futile encryption restrictions are, and to perhaps make people wonder if it's really "the land of a free" when a child can commit a crime by doing some math. Fortunately, I think we're still a ways off from encryption being a crime.
- bilekas 7y ago
  > I've mentioned this before, but I'd like to write a children's book that teaches one-time-pads. The book ends with little Jimmy getting hauled away by the feds for doing illegal math. Fun for children and parents! I absolutely love this. Animal Farm comes to mind. Please write this, our descendants need those echoes from the past.

bilekas 7y ago

Exactly, the problem for the baddies has been solved since at least 1882 (Frank Miller iirc: Edit Wiki says yes). So this argument about security is obviously just what information they're getting. You can't blame someone for not knowing what they don't know, but lawmakers are supposed to enact laws based on the benefit for their citizens. Seems not to be the case here.

_fizz_buzz_ 7y ago

One-Time pad is not a practical solution in any sense. The key distribution becomes so impractical that there is basically no justification to ever use the one time pad. Also, it's a symmetric encryption algorithm and what you really need for end-to-end encryption in the sense they talk about here is an asymmetric encryption algorithm.

beisner 7y ago
I don’t know, is it that impractical for a group of conspirators to meet in person a single time, exchange a bunch of 1TB hard drives with identical one-time pads, and then conduct their business accordingly? Surely that’s enough for a substantial amount of communication. Impractical for large-scale communities of illicit behavior but definitely practical for small groups of people
A4ET8a8uTh0 7y ago
Maybe. It really depends on actual use case. I remember reading a case about a drug ring that used half of a dollar bill to ensure that the person courier deals with is the right person.
yellowapple 7y ago
Quite a few "asymmetric" encryption schemes are only asymmetric for as long as it takes to get both ends communicating via symmetric encryption. This is, most notably, how SSL/TLS works. In this case, you'd only need the asymmetric encryption to distribute the one-time pads.
- _fizz_buzz_ 7y ago
  lol, your suggestion is to send a key through asymmetric encryption (which must be definition be as long as the plain text). Then you send an encrypted message. If someone eavesdropped on your key (send through asymmetric encryption) the message is compromised. You might as well send the complete message through asymmetric encryption then. You just wasted bytes and gained nothing in security. The problem with the one time pad is that it opens up a myriad of side channel attacks on the key.