7 ms·

I would recommend hiding your gender. You'd be surprised at how awful women can be to each other. The only people I see activity holding back women is other w

by wolco 7y ago

I would recommend hiding your gender. You'd be surprised at how awful women can be to each other. The only people I see activity holding back women is other women. I just don't understand it.

whatshisface 7y ago
Women being hit on anywhere they show a picture is pretty common. In western culture it's the men that are supposed to do the approaching, and if you're attractive and a lot of men can see you, well, the same thing always happens. This is fine for Victorian parlors or whatever but not ideal for business!
- DoreenMichele 7y ago
  That's a fairly obvious problem, but I think the larger problem is what I said in my other comment: The lack of strong business connections. It is a self-reinforcing nightmare because it sets women up to assume that if a man is taking a strong interest in her, there is only one reason he could be talking with her. If she then reacts with flirtatious behavior or trying to make sure he understands whether or not she is romantically interested, etc, this can drive off men who would like to make a business connection and don't need some woman threatening their marriage, etc.
  - whatshisface 7y ago
    Part of the reason we're stuck in that nightmare is that there are so many workaholics out there that for many people, braving the obvious risks and downsides of doing relationship stuff "on company time" is their only path to not dying alone. It would be so much easier if we could all agree to divide the sterile from the personal right down the 5pm line, but there are too many people that have nothing on the other side of 5pm.
    - DoreenMichele 7y ago
      I think it's inherently tricky for reasons I tried to explain in an old blog post, recently republished here: https://witnesstodestruction.blogspot.com/p/the-gray-zone.html https://witnesstodestruction.blogspot.com/p/the-gray-zone.ht...
DoreenMichele 7y ago
You'd be surprised at how awful women can be to each other. LOL. No, I wouldn't be surprised. I'm well acquainted with the phenomenon. The only people I see activity holding back women is other women. This framing may be on the mark, but my observation has been that the primary way men are a problem is that men mostly don't want to engage a woman too much if they aren't looking for a sexual relationship and this is a huge barrier to networking, getting referrals, etc. I don't think most men are intentionally, actively and on purpose trying to keep women out, but it's a big, big problem that they don't want to talk too much to a woman for fear that it might lead to an affair or a really terrible misunderstanding or gossip. For serious business people, a good reputation is worth a lot of money, so I think a lot of businessmen don't want to take the risk of talking overly much to a woman for fear of pointlessly sullying their reputation. In most cases, they don't strictly need to network with women to further their career, so it's just not worth the risk involved to them most of the time. I just don't understand it. I think I do, at least to some degree, but this is not really the time or place for me to natter on about it.
- perl4ever 7y ago
  "...I don't think most men are intentionally, actively and on purpose trying to keep women out, but it's a big, big problem that they don't want to talk too much to a woman for fear that it might lead to an affair or a really terrible misunderstanding or gossip" It's bewildering how everybody knows there are these tremendous informal barriers, that have withstood all past attempts at equal rights, and yet everybody also knows that women have better social skills and emotional intelligence than men. One thing that jumps out at me is you seem to be saying what holds women back is that men don't trust them. This is a very interesting point. I have, and have had, a very negative reaction to anyone demanding trust beyond what feels right to me. The "golden rule" is central to most people's value systems, I think, and it is completely unimaginable to me that I could or should be able to demand trust as an entitlement. However, I think your expectation of trust from men is normal, or at least common, based on my personal relationships. I do think that you might consider that not trusting women can and does have significant negatives for men too. I don't disbelieve in your description of issues people have, but explanations I read - yours or others - tend to sound circular to me and not really explain why things are the way they are.

by wolco 7y ago

I would recommend hiding your gender. You'd be surprised at how awful women can be to each other. The only people I see activity holding back women is other women. I just don't understand it.

whatshisface 7y ago

Women being hit on anywhere they show a picture is pretty common. In western culture it's the men that are supposed to do the approaching, and if you're attractive and a lot of men can see you, well, the same thing always happens. This is fine for Victorian parlors or whatever but not ideal for business!

DoreenMichele 7y ago
That's a fairly obvious problem, but I think the larger problem is what I said in my other comment: The lack of strong business connections. It is a self-reinforcing nightmare because it sets women up to assume that if a man is taking a strong interest in her, there is only one reason he could be talking with her. If she then reacts with flirtatious behavior or trying to make sure he understands whether or not she is romantically interested, etc, this can drive off men who would like to make a business connection and don't need some woman threatening their marriage, etc.
- whatshisface 7y ago
  Part of the reason we're stuck in that nightmare is that there are so many workaholics out there that for many people, braving the obvious risks and downsides of doing relationship stuff "on company time" is their only path to not dying alone. It would be so much easier if we could all agree to divide the sterile from the personal right down the 5pm line, but there are too many people that have nothing on the other side of 5pm.
  - DoreenMichele 7y ago
    I think it's inherently tricky for reasons I tried to explain in an old blog post, recently republished here: https://witnesstodestruction.blogspot.com/p/the-gray-zone.html https://witnesstodestruction.blogspot.com/p/the-gray-zone.ht...

DoreenMichele 7y ago

You'd be surprised at how awful women can be to each other. LOL. No, I wouldn't be surprised. I'm well acquainted with the phenomenon. The only people I see activity holding back women is other women. This framing may be on the mark, but my observation has been that the primary way men are a problem is that men mostly don't want to engage a woman too much if they aren't looking for a sexual relationship and this is a huge barrier to networking, getting referrals, etc. I don't think most men are intentionally, actively and on purpose trying to keep women out, but it's a big, big problem that they don't want to talk too much to a woman for fear that it might lead to an affair or a really terrible misunderstanding or gossip. For serious business people, a good reputation is worth a lot of money, so I think a lot of businessmen don't want to take the risk of talking overly much to a woman for fear of pointlessly sullying their reputation. In most cases, they don't strictly need to network with women to further their career, so it's just not worth the risk involved to them most of the time. I just don't understand it. I think I do, at least to some degree, but this is not really the time or place for me to natter on about it.

perl4ever 7y ago
"...I don't think most men are intentionally, actively and on purpose trying to keep women out, but it's a big, big problem that they don't want to talk too much to a woman for fear that it might lead to an affair or a really terrible misunderstanding or gossip" It's bewildering how everybody knows there are these tremendous informal barriers, that have withstood all past attempts at equal rights, and yet everybody also knows that women have better social skills and emotional intelligence than men. One thing that jumps out at me is you seem to be saying what holds women back is that men don't trust them. This is a very interesting point. I have, and have had, a very negative reaction to anyone demanding trust beyond what feels right to me. The "golden rule" is central to most people's value systems, I think, and it is completely unimaginable to me that I could or should be able to demand trust as an entitlement. However, I think your expectation of trust from men is normal, or at least common, based on my personal relationships. I do think that you might consider that not trusting women can and does have significant negatives for men too. I don't disbelieve in your description of issues people have, but explanations I read - yours or others - tend to sound circular to me and not really explain why things are the way they are.