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I design Ad Tech systems, currently work as an architect for a DSP, and I deleted my Facebook accounts years ago. People who think they are privacy conscious an

I design Ad Tech systems, currently work as an architect for a DSP, and I deleted my Facebook accounts years ago. People who think they are privacy conscious and use Facebook are a living oxymoron.

burkaman 7y ago
Why do you build ad tech if you think it's harmful?
- DevKoala 7y ago
  I moved to B2B, doing ads for companies targeting employees of other companies. Convincing you to buy a bad database is not harmful compared to convincing you buy unhealthy food or feel anxious about not having the latest in fashion.
  - chaps 7y ago
    Have any of the systems you've designed ever been used for something they weren't originally meant for? Will they ever? Do you have any guarantees of that? You can say that the systems that you're building are not being used in a dystopic fashion, but in doing so you're ignoring the fact that you're still building scaffolding for the rest of the industry.
  - burkaman 7y ago
    I agree that sounds less harmful, but why not do something that's not harmful at all? Or maybe even beneficial? Getting a software job is so easy right now. If you don't feel like you're helping the world at all, why do it?
  - Nextgrid 7y ago
    Does B2B advertising still rely on stalking and collecting personal data? Personally my problem isn't as much as what the ads are about and more about the data they collect, essentially creating an ever growing liability for me up until the entire thing blows up when the data finally leaks.
    - DevKoala 7y ago
      We don’t use fingerprinting besides cookies and don’t rely on third party identity graphs; we have over a decade of experience doing B2B and understand what works. Also, anticipating the death of the cookie, we are moving towards contextual technologies over individual identifiers. Understanding a company’s buying intent is a whole different ball game, takes a lot of data that doesn’t belong to any single individual. It is intrusive to individuals because we infer your employer, but we don’t care about anything else; we operate at a macro level and that keeps us ahead.
      - chaps 7y ago
        You infer peoples employer using what methods? I genuinely don't understand why you'd think that's an acceptable thing to do.
        DevKoala 7y ago
        We don’t collect PII, emails, scrap profiles, etc. We are not in a situation in which someone could perform a few joins and know who was reading what, that’s not how we designed it. If anything, we use a lot of financial and CRM data.
        Nextgrid 7y ago
        What constitutes financial and CRM data, how is it obtained and how is it tied to a user just browsing and running the JavaScript of one of your ads? (Not looking for any special techniques or trade secrets, just trying to understand where the data comes from and how is it tied to a pseudonymous browser fingerprint so I can make an opinion on whether I think it’s ethical and how can I defend against it.)
        DevKoala 7y ago
        The CRM data comes from the advertising party. I answered above around the financial data, nothing related to individuals.
soared 7y ago
You know better than anyone that deleting your fb account doesn’t really accomplish anything though. All you did was change some flag in their device graph.
- DevKoala 7y ago
  I do tons of things, and yes, I know deleting Facebook/Instagram had an effect.
  - soared 7y ago
    If you stopped using facebook it would have an effect, but I don't think deleting your profile does. Your still tagged as the same user, every fb pixel still sends data back about you, and all your transaction are still linked to you. I cannot possibly believe that deleting your fb account removes all the info about you in their identity graph. It would just convert your active profile to a shadow one. http://theconversation.com/shadow-profiles-facebook-knows-about-you-even-if-youre-not-on-facebook-94804 http://theconversation.com/shadow-profiles-facebook-knows-ab...
    - DevKoala 7y ago
      If I delete my account I stop using it, hence I stop giving tracking data to them and their partners. Why do you think that cutting that heartbeat signal, even a single login once a month, has no impact? Over time all of the relationships weaken in the data graph. Think of it as bad credit history. After a while, they only use the last set of info; using stale information biases the models and is just expensive. Also deleting profiles excludes them from tons of data model recalculations since they cannot deliver impressions, it is a waste. Sorry I thought that was clear.
      - soared 7y ago
        My point was that they don't actually delete your account and so don't lose any data with the exception of your on-facebook behavior. I would assume that your profile still exists and is treated the exact same way as before you deleted it, just with a flag that it was "deleted". So they still can tie back impressions to your account in the exact same way.
sleepytimetea 7y ago
Exactly ! I don't know why folks want to have it both ways - you cannot separate the good Facebook features from its bad privacy violating features - folks need to choose what shade of gray they are ok with. Facebook started off as a very white shade of gray and has slowly turned to the dark side, getting darker and darker shades of gray until the present day, when they are nearly black, gamma channel 1/255.
- chaps 7y ago
  I don't understand your point. In one sentence, you say that we should collectively be more okay with gray areas, but in the next you point out the triviality of going from gray to black. OP is still contributing to a massive surveillance system. I'm not sure why you'd think that leans on the lighter side of gray. Could you explain your point a bit more please?

I design Ad Tech systems, currently work as an architect for a DSP, and I deleted my Facebook accounts years ago. People who think they are privacy conscious and use Facebook are a living oxymoron.

burkaman 7y ago

Why do you build ad tech if you think it's harmful?

DevKoala 7y ago
I moved to B2B, doing ads for companies targeting employees of other companies. Convincing you to buy a bad database is not harmful compared to convincing you buy unhealthy food or feel anxious about not having the latest in fashion.
- chaps 7y ago
  Have any of the systems you've designed ever been used for something they weren't originally meant for? Will they ever? Do you have any guarantees of that? You can say that the systems that you're building are not being used in a dystopic fashion, but in doing so you're ignoring the fact that you're still building scaffolding for the rest of the industry.
- burkaman 7y ago
  I agree that sounds less harmful, but why not do something that's not harmful at all? Or maybe even beneficial? Getting a software job is so easy right now. If you don't feel like you're helping the world at all, why do it?
- Nextgrid 7y ago
  Does B2B advertising still rely on stalking and collecting personal data? Personally my problem isn't as much as what the ads are about and more about the data they collect, essentially creating an ever growing liability for me up until the entire thing blows up when the data finally leaks.
  - DevKoala 7y ago
    We don’t use fingerprinting besides cookies and don’t rely on third party identity graphs; we have over a decade of experience doing B2B and understand what works. Also, anticipating the death of the cookie, we are moving towards contextual technologies over individual identifiers. Understanding a company’s buying intent is a whole different ball game, takes a lot of data that doesn’t belong to any single individual. It is intrusive to individuals because we infer your employer, but we don’t care about anything else; we operate at a macro level and that keeps us ahead.
    - chaps 7y ago
      You infer peoples employer using what methods? I genuinely don't understand why you'd think that's an acceptable thing to do.
      - DevKoala 7y ago
        We don’t collect PII, emails, scrap profiles, etc. We are not in a situation in which someone could perform a few joins and know who was reading what, that’s not how we designed it. If anything, we use a lot of financial and CRM data.
        Nextgrid 7y ago
        What constitutes financial and CRM data, how is it obtained and how is it tied to a user just browsing and running the JavaScript of one of your ads? (Not looking for any special techniques or trade secrets, just trying to understand where the data comes from and how is it tied to a pseudonymous browser fingerprint so I can make an opinion on whether I think it’s ethical and how can I defend against it.)
        DevKoala 7y ago
        The CRM data comes from the advertising party. I answered above around the financial data, nothing related to individuals.

soared 7y ago

You know better than anyone that deleting your fb account doesn’t really accomplish anything though. All you did was change some flag in their device graph.

DevKoala 7y ago
I do tons of things, and yes, I know deleting Facebook/Instagram had an effect.
- soared 7y ago
  If you stopped using facebook it would have an effect, but I don't think deleting your profile does. Your still tagged as the same user, every fb pixel still sends data back about you, and all your transaction are still linked to you. I cannot possibly believe that deleting your fb account removes all the info about you in their identity graph. It would just convert your active profile to a shadow one. http://theconversation.com/shadow-profiles-facebook-knows-about-you-even-if-youre-not-on-facebook-94804 http://theconversation.com/shadow-profiles-facebook-knows-ab...
  - DevKoala 7y ago
    If I delete my account I stop using it, hence I stop giving tracking data to them and their partners. Why do you think that cutting that heartbeat signal, even a single login once a month, has no impact? Over time all of the relationships weaken in the data graph. Think of it as bad credit history. After a while, they only use the last set of info; using stale information biases the models and is just expensive. Also deleting profiles excludes them from tons of data model recalculations since they cannot deliver impressions, it is a waste. Sorry I thought that was clear.
    - soared 7y ago
      My point was that they don't actually delete your account and so don't lose any data with the exception of your on-facebook behavior. I would assume that your profile still exists and is treated the exact same way as before you deleted it, just with a flag that it was "deleted". So they still can tie back impressions to your account in the exact same way.

sleepytimetea 7y ago

Exactly ! I don't know why folks want to have it both ways - you cannot separate the good Facebook features from its bad privacy violating features - folks need to choose what shade of gray they are ok with. Facebook started off as a very white shade of gray and has slowly turned to the dark side, getting darker and darker shades of gray until the present day, when they are nearly black, gamma channel 1/255.

chaps 7y ago
I don't understand your point. In one sentence, you say that we should collectively be more okay with gray areas, but in the next you point out the triviality of going from gray to black. OP is still contributing to a massive surveillance system. I'm not sure why you'd think that leans on the lighter side of gray. Could you explain your point a bit more please?