4 ms·

The most common difference between us peasants and the people of means is that those other people ASK more often. Ask for more money, ask for a bonus, ask for l

by papito 7y ago

The most common difference between us peasants and the people of means is that those other people ASK more often. Ask for more money, ask for a bonus, ask for lower rent. And then it adds up. The one thing that holds most of us back is shame. But shame is a good thing in general. It's the glue that keeps societies together, preventing them from spiraling down to the lowest common denominator. Questionable if this still works nowadays. But, anyway, the trick is to uncork some of that shame is small doses and be a little bit selfish every once in a while.

Ididntdothis 7y ago
I often ask people who are complaining about their salary whether have asked for a raise. Most of the time the answer is “no” followed by reasons like “I am afraid to get fired” or “they will make my life miserable” or “they should just do the right thing”.
- papito 7y ago
  Exactly. 9 out of 10 managers will give you more money. They are not going to offer it to you, normally, because they are not a charity. They want to give you the least amount of money that you will except. Secondly, who ever gets fired for asking for a raise? I mean, that is not normal. And if that does happen to you, it's most likely of some other underlying factors, where asking for a raise is just the last drop.
  - bradlys 7y ago
    > Exactly. 9 out of 10 managers will give you more money. I don't know - man. I've worked at a lot of places and this doesn't seem to be a common thing. It could be I've just worked at a lot of bad places but still. Asking for more isn't enough. It has to be the threat of leaving in order to get them to give more. At which point - the advice now for managers is, if they're threatening to leave unless you pay more then just let them leave.
    - tunesmith 7y ago
      I've always thought a "threat" of leaving is a meaningless concept. It's either a bluff or it isn't. Most straightforward way to handle it is to find another offer that you will legitimately take if you don't get a sufficient salary bump, and communicate that there aren't any hard feelings, you just need what the new employer will pay you. If your manager refuses, you move, and if he bumps your salary or counteroffers, you can reassess. This is really the only way to handle it if you want to keep things simple. Or, you can bluff.
      - joshspankit 7y ago
        (Citation needed) I read recently that shopping for an offer, leveraging it for a raise, and then staying was actually the wrong move. It essentially started a countdown to them letting you go.* * If you’re indispensable, the rules may not apply to you
        tunesmith 7y ago
        Yeah, as a rule of thumb. Ultimately it's all about leverage over time. If you're temporarily indispensable and now more expensive, but still replaceable for cheaper in the medium term, that's not a great situation for you to be in. On the other hand, if you really do have that other offer, you have a signal that that might be what you're worth in the open market. And if everyone starts getting more expensive, then employers simply have to adjust over time.
    - cosmiccatnap 7y ago
      Every manager I've ever had I've ask for a raise and everyone of them have given me the option to show up Monday or find a new job. This is fanciful thinking in a priviledged industry and doesn't represent most employment relationships.
      - strken 7y ago
        Why didn't you find a new job? The reason I ask this is because every time I've asked for a raise I've been underpaid relative to the market and known it, and been able to walk into a meeting with a list of numbers recruiters have sent me and credibly state that I'll have to consider other options soon. I would be surprised to find this hadn't worked for someone else, and even more surprised to find they hadn't left.
  - ta999999171 7y ago
    If you're underperforming, and have the gall to ask for a raise closer to someone that isn't, that could be indicative of issues grasping reality/fit into the team. Not everyone is you/us.
  - cosmie 7y ago
    > They are not going to offer it to you, normally, because they are not a charity. They want to give you the least amount of money that you will except. An alternative perspective from my time managing: That reflects the viewpoint of the business, not necessarily the viewpoint of the manager. Getting an out-of-band raise approved triggers entire internal processes, outside of the control of the immediate manager requesting it. Triggering one proactively as a manager with no impetus other than "this person deserves it" is likely to get denied or a token amount approved. As you said, the business wants to pay the least amount of money an employee is willing to accept. If the employee has given no indication they have issue with their current pay, the business has no reason to presume there's a need to pay them more. However, once someone asked for one, I could take that and use it as leverage. If the employee has brought it up, there's evidence of doubt on whether the company is still meeting that minimum threshold. Denying the raise outright increases the risk of attrition, so the business takes it seriously compared to the proactive request from the manager. Then I can use what I know to work the system in the way that results in a far more favorable raise.
  - downerending 7y ago
    True, but it's not a foolproof strategy. I'm shy about asking for more money, too. Instead, when I want a raise, I just line up a new job with the raise and switch.
  - sdinsn 7y ago
    > 9 out of 10 managers will give you more money Perhaps in the tech industry where there is a lower supply of workers, but not everywhere. Plenty of managers will say no because they know you can be quickly replaced.
  - ajuc 7y ago
    > 9 out of 10 managers will give you more money. They are not going to offer it to you, normally, because they are not a charity. They want to give you the least amount of money that you will except. It's not charity to pay people what they are worth, it's a good business strategy. Paying them the least they would accept is a sure way to have a high turnover and frustrated employees. Bad strategy. At least in a workers' market (so in IT for example). Asking for a rise is awkward, many people have problems doing it, so they postpone it. In IT the expected salary growth is pretty fast, especially early in the career, and it's also the time when junior developers are the least used to negotiation with their bosses. So people are routinely underpaid until they talk with their friends and realize switching companies gives them automatic 10-15% rise and some new learning opportunities. When you have a job applying for a new job is actually pretty stress-free, and it's a good idea to do this from time to time just to see what technologies are hot and what questions people are asking. Then you get offered 15% more than in your current job and a new project that always seems better than the project you're currently working on :) So companies that don't give rises without being asked to - will have to deal with a high developer turnover and all the associated costs.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
- swsieber 7y ago
  A company I worked for had a down year, and so I asked for paternity leave. They wouldn't give it to me, but I did get a maxed out PTO accrual rate. It was a stressful experience.
metalliqaz 7y ago
I've seen pride and greed without a trace of shame. Its ugly, dangerous, and orange.
tunesmith 7y ago
You can also ask creatively. I've had a few occasions where I told friends about how I've done things like... if their final offer salary range isn't as high as I would have liked but still acceptable, ask for a signing bonus to help make up a difference. The response I've gotten (from a couple of friends) has approached the level of shock, or (from a female friend) almost anger at the realization that they would have never even thought of that. Unsure whether to conclude it's privilege on my part, or conditioning on their part that they wouldn't have thought of it, probably a mix of both.
caseysoftware 7y ago
I think the other thing is ruthless prioritization. If you say "no" when you should, you can say "yes" when it's important.
JackRabbitSlim 7y ago
No. The difference is those with means can accept the risk of asking for more. It's not simply that they ask, its that they survive when/if it fails.
solatic 7y ago
> The one thing that holds most of us back is shame. This is condescending. If you ask, you have to be prepared for the other side saying no. Sometimes, the very act of asking can be construed as offensive and deteriorate relations, resulting in premature termination of either the negotiations or the relationship altogether. It only makes sense to ask if you have leverage. You have leverage to ask for a raise if you can afford to be unemployed for a while while you look for new work. You have leverage to ask for a reduction in housing rent if the housing market is liquid enough that you are reasonably certain that you can find another place to live that offers you roughly the same utility per dollar that you are already paying. By definition, people with means are more likely to have leverage than people without means. The question, often enough, is how to get people to realize the leverage they already have, or at least to come up with a strategy to develop leverage where they had none before.
audiometry 7y ago
Your remark is probably underappreciated.... I worked at Goldman Sachs for many years. There was a particular, successful, sales md there. I realized that one of his 'skills' was to ask everyone for something. Not some kind of exchange, or quid-pro-quo, just "can you do X for me", "can you give me Y". If you were gullible enough to do it for him, good for him. You could expect no consideration in return. It's one of those behaviors that worked out well for him, but I found it incredibly unctuous and couldn't bring myself to do it. In a related way, I remember reading that "hustlers/fraudsters' strategy is to make the situation such that it's impolite for you to say 'no'" Similar idea to the above.

by papito 7y ago

Ididntdothis 7y ago

I often ask people who are complaining about their salary whether have asked for a raise. Most of the time the answer is “no” followed by reasons like “I am afraid to get fired” or “they will make my life miserable” or “they should just do the right thing”.

papito 7y ago
Exactly. 9 out of 10 managers will give you more money. They are not going to offer it to you, normally, because they are not a charity. They want to give you the least amount of money that you will except. Secondly, who ever gets fired for asking for a raise? I mean, that is not normal. And if that does happen to you, it's most likely of some other underlying factors, where asking for a raise is just the last drop.
- bradlys 7y ago
  > Exactly. 9 out of 10 managers will give you more money. I don't know - man. I've worked at a lot of places and this doesn't seem to be a common thing. It could be I've just worked at a lot of bad places but still. Asking for more isn't enough. It has to be the threat of leaving in order to get them to give more. At which point - the advice now for managers is, if they're threatening to leave unless you pay more then just let them leave.
  - tunesmith 7y ago
    I've always thought a "threat" of leaving is a meaningless concept. It's either a bluff or it isn't. Most straightforward way to handle it is to find another offer that you will legitimately take if you don't get a sufficient salary bump, and communicate that there aren't any hard feelings, you just need what the new employer will pay you. If your manager refuses, you move, and if he bumps your salary or counteroffers, you can reassess. This is really the only way to handle it if you want to keep things simple. Or, you can bluff.
    - joshspankit 7y ago
      (Citation needed) I read recently that shopping for an offer, leveraging it for a raise, and then staying was actually the wrong move. It essentially started a countdown to them letting you go.* * If you’re indispensable, the rules may not apply to you
      - tunesmith 7y ago
        Yeah, as a rule of thumb. Ultimately it's all about leverage over time. If you're temporarily indispensable and now more expensive, but still replaceable for cheaper in the medium term, that's not a great situation for you to be in. On the other hand, if you really do have that other offer, you have a signal that that might be what you're worth in the open market. And if everyone starts getting more expensive, then employers simply have to adjust over time.
  - cosmiccatnap 7y ago
    Every manager I've ever had I've ask for a raise and everyone of them have given me the option to show up Monday or find a new job. This is fanciful thinking in a priviledged industry and doesn't represent most employment relationships.
    - strken 7y ago
      Why didn't you find a new job? The reason I ask this is because every time I've asked for a raise I've been underpaid relative to the market and known it, and been able to walk into a meeting with a list of numbers recruiters have sent me and credibly state that I'll have to consider other options soon. I would be surprised to find this hadn't worked for someone else, and even more surprised to find they hadn't left.
- ta999999171 7y ago
  If you're underperforming, and have the gall to ask for a raise closer to someone that isn't, that could be indicative of issues grasping reality/fit into the team. Not everyone is you/us.
- cosmie 7y ago
  > They are not going to offer it to you, normally, because they are not a charity. They want to give you the least amount of money that you will except. An alternative perspective from my time managing: That reflects the viewpoint of the business, not necessarily the viewpoint of the manager. Getting an out-of-band raise approved triggers entire internal processes, outside of the control of the immediate manager requesting it. Triggering one proactively as a manager with no impetus other than "this person deserves it" is likely to get denied or a token amount approved. As you said, the business wants to pay the least amount of money an employee is willing to accept. If the employee has given no indication they have issue with their current pay, the business has no reason to presume there's a need to pay them more. However, once someone asked for one, I could take that and use it as leverage. If the employee has brought it up, there's evidence of doubt on whether the company is still meeting that minimum threshold. Denying the raise outright increases the risk of attrition, so the business takes it seriously compared to the proactive request from the manager. Then I can use what I know to work the system in the way that results in a far more favorable raise.
- downerending 7y ago
  True, but it's not a foolproof strategy. I'm shy about asking for more money, too. Instead, when I want a raise, I just line up a new job with the raise and switch.
- sdinsn 7y ago
  > 9 out of 10 managers will give you more money Perhaps in the tech industry where there is a lower supply of workers, but not everywhere. Plenty of managers will say no because they know you can be quickly replaced.
- ajuc 7y ago
  > 9 out of 10 managers will give you more money. They are not going to offer it to you, normally, because they are not a charity. They want to give you the least amount of money that you will except. It's not charity to pay people what they are worth, it's a good business strategy. Paying them the least they would accept is a sure way to have a high turnover and frustrated employees. Bad strategy. At least in a workers' market (so in IT for example). Asking for a rise is awkward, many people have problems doing it, so they postpone it. In IT the expected salary growth is pretty fast, especially early in the career, and it's also the time when junior developers are the least used to negotiation with their bosses. So people are routinely underpaid until they talk with their friends and realize switching companies gives them automatic 10-15% rise and some new learning opportunities. When you have a job applying for a new job is actually pretty stress-free, and it's a good idea to do this from time to time just to see what technologies are hot and what questions people are asking. Then you get offered 15% more than in your current job and a new project that always seems better than the project you're currently working on :) So companies that don't give rises without being asked to - will have to deal with a high developer turnover and all the associated costs.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
swsieber 7y ago
A company I worked for had a down year, and so I asked for paternity leave. They wouldn't give it to me, but I did get a maxed out PTO accrual rate. It was a stressful experience.

metalliqaz 7y ago

I've seen pride and greed without a trace of shame. Its ugly, dangerous, and orange.

tunesmith 7y ago

You can also ask creatively. I've had a few occasions where I told friends about how I've done things like... if their final offer salary range isn't as high as I would have liked but still acceptable, ask for a signing bonus to help make up a difference. The response I've gotten (from a couple of friends) has approached the level of shock, or (from a female friend) almost anger at the realization that they would have never even thought of that. Unsure whether to conclude it's privilege on my part, or conditioning on their part that they wouldn't have thought of it, probably a mix of both.

caseysoftware 7y ago

I think the other thing is ruthless prioritization. If you say "no" when you should, you can say "yes" when it's important.

JackRabbitSlim 7y ago

No. The difference is those with means can accept the risk of asking for more. It's not simply that they ask, its that they survive when/if it fails.

solatic 7y ago

> The one thing that holds most of us back is shame. This is condescending. If you ask, you have to be prepared for the other side saying no. Sometimes, the very act of asking can be construed as offensive and deteriorate relations, resulting in premature termination of either the negotiations or the relationship altogether. It only makes sense to ask if you have leverage. You have leverage to ask for a raise if you can afford to be unemployed for a while while you look for new work. You have leverage to ask for a reduction in housing rent if the housing market is liquid enough that you are reasonably certain that you can find another place to live that offers you roughly the same utility per dollar that you are already paying. By definition, people with means are more likely to have leverage than people without means. The question, often enough, is how to get people to realize the leverage they already have, or at least to come up with a strategy to develop leverage where they had none before.

audiometry 7y ago

Your remark is probably underappreciated.... I worked at Goldman Sachs for many years. There was a particular, successful, sales md there. I realized that one of his 'skills' was to ask everyone for something. Not some kind of exchange, or quid-pro-quo, just "can you do X for me", "can you give me Y". If you were gullible enough to do it for him, good for him. You could expect no consideration in return. It's one of those behaviors that worked out well for him, but I found it incredibly unctuous and couldn't bring myself to do it. In a related way, I remember reading that "hustlers/fraudsters' strategy is to make the situation such that it's impolite for you to say 'no'" Similar idea to the above.