5 ms·

Are you sure it wasn’t a genuine mistake?

seanhunter 7y ago
He did a few things when he did it which made it clear it wasn't a mistake. He had to sort of go out of his way to do it.
Nrbelex 7y ago
And if you're sure, did you report this to the relevant disciplinary body?
- jandrese 7y ago
  What, the bar association? Sleezy as this is you wouldn't be able to show damages since you didn't sign the contract. The other lawyer can claim error and the burden of proof would be on you. If you did accept, then you have a lengthy court battle ahead where a jury could very well rule "abide by the contract you signed you reneging moocher." The real world isn't a school playground. Calling a teacher over is time consuming and expensive and far from a guarantee of justice. It is up to you to keep yourself safe from assholes like this by always doing your due diligence. Someone who pulls this kind of shit constantly will eventually lose their license, but many years down the road and after many victims.
  - Nrbelex 7y ago
    ABA Model Rules of Professional Conduct, Rule 8.4: Misconduct: "It is professional misconduct for a lawyer to: [...] (c) engage in conduct involving dishonesty, fraud, deceit or misrepresentation..." [https://www.americanbar.org/groups/professional_responsibility/publications/model_rules_of_professional_conduct/rule_8_4_misconduct/ https://www.americanbar.org/groups/professional_responsibili...] If it really was intentional, this very clearly meets the standard, and there's absolutely no requirement that there be damages for the lawyer to be disciplined. I'm not talking about a fraud or malpractice claim, so there's no reason this would involve a lengthy court battle, etc. Further, Rule 8.3: "(a) A lawyer who knows that another lawyer has committed a violation of the Rules of Professional Conduct that raises a substantial question as to that lawyer's honesty, trustworthiness or fitness as a lawyer in other respects, shall inform the appropriate professional authority." [https://www.americanbar.org/groups/professional_responsibility/publications/model_rules_of_professional_conduct/rule_8_3_reporting_professional_misconduct/ https://www.americanbar.org/groups/professional_responsibili...] Seems to fit as well if the behavior was repeated.
    - jandrese 7y ago
      But on the same site: https://www.americanbar.org/groups/professional_responsibility/resources/resources_for_the_public/ https://www.americanbar.org/groups/professional_responsibili... > The ABA is not a lawyer disciplinary agency and has no authority to investigate or act upon complaints filed against lawyers. Each state has its own agency that performs that function in regard to lawyers practicing in that state. Locate your state agency from the Directory of State Disciplinary Agencies. So you're not dealing with the ABA, but the underfunded and understaffed state board.
      - Nrbelex 7y ago
        Of course you're dealing with your local licensing authority, but they'll all have a rule substantially the same as the model rule cited. California's state bar even has a formal opinion calling out this or similar behavior: "Had Seller’s Attorney intentionally created a defective “redline” to surreptitiously conceal the change to the covenant not to compete, his conduct would constitute deceit, active concealment and possibly fraud, in violation of Seller’s Attorney’s ethical obligations." [https://www.calbar.ca.gov/Portals/0/documents/ethics/Opinions/CAL%202013-189%20%5B11-0002%5D%20v.1.pdf https://www.calbar.ca.gov/Portals/0/documents/ethics/Opinion...]
izacus 7y ago
No, I've had this happen when drawing up contracts with American lawyers way too many times for it to be mistakes. We've had lawyers try to sneak in one sided clauses after we agreed differently with business owners pretty much constantly. It always significantly deteriorated relations with that company. But I guess Americans think that's fine because "it's just business".
- azinman2 7y ago
  IANAL, but if you have correspondence indicating that you wanted something removed and both sides agreed to it, then I'd imagine you'd have a case in court if they slipped something in. Contracts are never 'iron-clad' -- for example, you cannot legally sign away your soul. Lots of stuff can be invalidated in court.
  - dillonmckay 7y ago
    That sounds expensive.
  - izacus 7y ago
    Sure, but when they "fix" things like ticket/issue response times, SLAs, responsibilities of both companies, it can later be very hard to prove what you've agreed on a video call with a CEO/CTO. Especially when that other company decides that you'll be the one taking the blame for their internal politics.
    - azinman2 7y ago
      Always get everything in writing. If you've been passing redlines back and forth, you should have that at minimum.
- Ericson2314 7y ago
  Yeah this is standard American bullshit.
  - airstrike 7y ago

He did a few things when he did it which made it clear it wasn't a mistake. He had to sort of go out of his way to do it.

Nrbelex 7y ago

And if you're sure, did you report this to the relevant disciplinary body?

jandrese 7y ago
What, the bar association? Sleezy as this is you wouldn't be able to show damages since you didn't sign the contract. The other lawyer can claim error and the burden of proof would be on you. If you did accept, then you have a lengthy court battle ahead where a jury could very well rule "abide by the contract you signed you reneging moocher." The real world isn't a school playground. Calling a teacher over is time consuming and expensive and far from a guarantee of justice. It is up to you to keep yourself safe from assholes like this by always doing your due diligence. Someone who pulls this kind of shit constantly will eventually lose their license, but many years down the road and after many victims.
- Nrbelex 7y ago
  ABA Model Rules of Professional Conduct, Rule 8.4: Misconduct: "It is professional misconduct for a lawyer to: [...] (c) engage in conduct involving dishonesty, fraud, deceit or misrepresentation..." [https://www.americanbar.org/groups/professional_responsibility/publications/model_rules_of_professional_conduct/rule_8_4_misconduct/ https://www.americanbar.org/groups/professional_responsibili...] If it really was intentional, this very clearly meets the standard, and there's absolutely no requirement that there be damages for the lawyer to be disciplined. I'm not talking about a fraud or malpractice claim, so there's no reason this would involve a lengthy court battle, etc. Further, Rule 8.3: "(a) A lawyer who knows that another lawyer has committed a violation of the Rules of Professional Conduct that raises a substantial question as to that lawyer's honesty, trustworthiness or fitness as a lawyer in other respects, shall inform the appropriate professional authority." [https://www.americanbar.org/groups/professional_responsibility/publications/model_rules_of_professional_conduct/rule_8_3_reporting_professional_misconduct/ https://www.americanbar.org/groups/professional_responsibili...] Seems to fit as well if the behavior was repeated.
  - jandrese 7y ago
    But on the same site: https://www.americanbar.org/groups/professional_responsibility/resources/resources_for_the_public/ https://www.americanbar.org/groups/professional_responsibili... > The ABA is not a lawyer disciplinary agency and has no authority to investigate or act upon complaints filed against lawyers. Each state has its own agency that performs that function in regard to lawyers practicing in that state. Locate your state agency from the Directory of State Disciplinary Agencies. So you're not dealing with the ABA, but the underfunded and understaffed state board.
    - Nrbelex 7y ago
      Of course you're dealing with your local licensing authority, but they'll all have a rule substantially the same as the model rule cited. California's state bar even has a formal opinion calling out this or similar behavior: "Had Seller’s Attorney intentionally created a defective “redline” to surreptitiously conceal the change to the covenant not to compete, his conduct would constitute deceit, active concealment and possibly fraud, in violation of Seller’s Attorney’s ethical obligations." [https://www.calbar.ca.gov/Portals/0/documents/ethics/Opinions/CAL%202013-189%20%5B11-0002%5D%20v.1.pdf https://www.calbar.ca.gov/Portals/0/documents/ethics/Opinion...]

izacus 7y ago

No, I've had this happen when drawing up contracts with American lawyers way too many times for it to be mistakes. We've had lawyers try to sneak in one sided clauses after we agreed differently with business owners pretty much constantly. It always significantly deteriorated relations with that company. But I guess Americans think that's fine because "it's just business".

azinman2 7y ago
IANAL, but if you have correspondence indicating that you wanted something removed and both sides agreed to it, then I'd imagine you'd have a case in court if they slipped something in. Contracts are never 'iron-clad' -- for example, you cannot legally sign away your soul. Lots of stuff can be invalidated in court.
- dillonmckay 7y ago
  That sounds expensive.
- izacus 7y ago
  Sure, but when they "fix" things like ticket/issue response times, SLAs, responsibilities of both companies, it can later be very hard to prove what you've agreed on a video call with a CEO/CTO. Especially when that other company decides that you'll be the one taking the blame for their internal politics.
  - azinman2 7y ago
    Always get everything in writing. If you've been passing redlines back and forth, you should have that at minimum.
Ericson2314 7y ago
Yeah this is standard American bullshit.
- airstrike 7y ago