4 ms·

You will always have vendor neutral payments with bank transactions, which are EU wide and regulated with SEPA. Don't know about Sweden, but in the Netherlands

by dtech 7y ago

You will always have vendor neutral payments with bank transactions, which are EU wide and regulated with SEPA. Don't know about Sweden, but in the Netherlands that's widely supported and free for consumers. What's the harm in people using a proprietary app on top of that that has slightly more convenience?

johnlorentzson 7y ago
Because it's become a standard that almost everyone is expected to use.
- tyfon 7y ago
  We got a system in Norway called Vipps for small transactions that I refuse to take part in but it seems like 99% of the rest of the population are using it. I've yet to have anyone refuse to pay me via direct bank transfer or me paying them in this way when I ask and explain why I don't use Vipps.
  - 2rsf 7y ago
    > explain why I don't use Vipps please explain. direct bank transfers are still slow (same bank) to unacceptable (different banks) for most payments
    - pimterry 7y ago
      In general, within the EU, this is rapidly improving. > still slow (same bank) SEPA instant credit transfer is standardized since 2017 and supported by > 50% of banks & payment providers (https://www.europeanpaymentscouncil.eu/what-we-do/sepa-instant-credit-transfer https://www.europeanpaymentscouncil.eu/what-we-do/sepa-insta...). If both parties support that then bank transfers take under 10 seconds. If that's not supported somehow classic SEPA transfers work everywhere, and arrive in 1 business day max. 1 day isn't something you can use in a shop of course, but if you need to pay back a friend it's pretty acceptable imo. > unacceptable (different banks) Not accepting IBANs or SEPA payments from other banks or from banks in other EU countries is illegal, and comes with substantial fines. It still happens in places of course, especially in slow moving large orgs, but if you still find organizations doing this nowadays then you can report them as breaching EU payment regulations (https://eba.europa.eu/consumer-corner/how-to-complain https://eba.europa.eu/consumer-corner/how-to-complain) and that should set a fire under things pretty quickly.
      - fauigerzigerk 7y ago
        >If that's not supported somehow classic SEPA transfers work everywhere, and arrive in 1 business day max. Right, but one business day will often be two days during the week and four days over the weekend, because many banks set an arbitrary cut-off time after which they will no longer process any payments. One bank I use will process payments received after 12:00 pm (lunchtime) on the next day. So the money will arrive two days later, unless it's a Friday, in which case the money arrives on Tuesday.
        mixmastamyk 7y ago
        Keep a full paycheck spare and then never have to worry about it again.
    - tyfon 7y ago
      Vipps has very poor validation of money transfers and there has been a lot of fraud already where people craft Vipps messages that look like official transfers and then tell people that they send money wrong and ask them to send it back. It is very hard to rectify things like that. A bank will tell me if I enter the account number wrong at least and show me the name of the account holder before I press send, with Vipps you just go without validation. Direct bank transfers in Norway can be made instantly for a tiny fee, but personally I have yet to be in a situation where that is required.
zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 7y ago
The question is: Can you interoperate without using the proprietary app? Facebook also builds on the internet and the web, but you can not interoperate with Facebook without becoming a Facebook user. And "interoperate" means that you can use an alternative while the other party does not (i.e., you are not dependent on the other party's cooperation in order to be able to use an alternative). But also, in any case it's still a bad idea because the payment provider has the ability to just disobey your payment orders, and regulation doesn't help with that but rather potentially makes it even more likely "for security reasons". Payment providers use secret methods to decide whether your payment order is considered a security risk and then will prevent you from spending your own money based on their secret decision making process, or at least make you jump through unpredictable hoops before they allow you to spend your own money. That's a major security risk for you, in addition to all the security risks due to the well-known terrible IT security practices of banks as well as/in combination with the privacy risks of leaving a digital trail of your locations and purchases.

by dtech 7y ago

johnlorentzson 7y ago

Because it's become a standard that almost everyone is expected to use.

tyfon 7y ago
We got a system in Norway called Vipps for small transactions that I refuse to take part in but it seems like 99% of the rest of the population are using it. I've yet to have anyone refuse to pay me via direct bank transfer or me paying them in this way when I ask and explain why I don't use Vipps.
- 2rsf 7y ago
  > explain why I don't use Vipps please explain. direct bank transfers are still slow (same bank) to unacceptable (different banks) for most payments
  - pimterry 7y ago
    In general, within the EU, this is rapidly improving. > still slow (same bank) SEPA instant credit transfer is standardized since 2017 and supported by > 50% of banks & payment providers (https://www.europeanpaymentscouncil.eu/what-we-do/sepa-instant-credit-transfer https://www.europeanpaymentscouncil.eu/what-we-do/sepa-insta...). If both parties support that then bank transfers take under 10 seconds. If that's not supported somehow classic SEPA transfers work everywhere, and arrive in 1 business day max. 1 day isn't something you can use in a shop of course, but if you need to pay back a friend it's pretty acceptable imo. > unacceptable (different banks) Not accepting IBANs or SEPA payments from other banks or from banks in other EU countries is illegal, and comes with substantial fines. It still happens in places of course, especially in slow moving large orgs, but if you still find organizations doing this nowadays then you can report them as breaching EU payment regulations (https://eba.europa.eu/consumer-corner/how-to-complain https://eba.europa.eu/consumer-corner/how-to-complain) and that should set a fire under things pretty quickly.
    - fauigerzigerk 7y ago
      >If that's not supported somehow classic SEPA transfers work everywhere, and arrive in 1 business day max. Right, but one business day will often be two days during the week and four days over the weekend, because many banks set an arbitrary cut-off time after which they will no longer process any payments. One bank I use will process payments received after 12:00 pm (lunchtime) on the next day. So the money will arrive two days later, unless it's a Friday, in which case the money arrives on Tuesday.
      - mixmastamyk 7y ago
        Keep a full paycheck spare and then never have to worry about it again.
  - tyfon 7y ago
    Vipps has very poor validation of money transfers and there has been a lot of fraud already where people craft Vipps messages that look like official transfers and then tell people that they send money wrong and ask them to send it back. It is very hard to rectify things like that. A bank will tell me if I enter the account number wrong at least and show me the name of the account holder before I press send, with Vipps you just go without validation. Direct bank transfers in Norway can be made instantly for a tiny fee, but personally I have yet to be in a situation where that is required.

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 7y ago

The question is: Can you interoperate without using the proprietary app? Facebook also builds on the internet and the web, but you can not interoperate with Facebook without becoming a Facebook user. And "interoperate" means that you can use an alternative while the other party does not (i.e., you are not dependent on the other party's cooperation in order to be able to use an alternative). But also, in any case it's still a bad idea because the payment provider has the ability to just disobey your payment orders, and regulation doesn't help with that but rather potentially makes it even more likely "for security reasons". Payment providers use secret methods to decide whether your payment order is considered a security risk and then will prevent you from spending your own money based on their secret decision making process, or at least make you jump through unpredictable hoops before they allow you to spend your own money. That's a major security risk for you, in addition to all the security risks due to the well-known terrible IT security practices of banks as well as/in combination with the privacy risks of leaving a digital trail of your locations and purchases.