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Being able to pay through cards and phones is super convenient, but cash should never not be an option. Card companies, payment apps and banks are constantly t
by notRobot 7y ago
Being able to pay through cards and phones is super convenient, but cash should never not be an option.
Card companies, payment apps and banks are constantly tracking your purchases and profiling you. This data can be leaked/stolen/sold, and is always available to governments and those in/with power.
Cash is (almost completely) anonymous. You should always be able to pay with cash if you want.
- jamesblonde 7y agoThat article is out of date. In large parts of central Stockholm, you can't pay by cash. Legal tender is just words, if they don't take cash there's not much you can do.
- reaperducer 7y agoSo how do poor people function in a cashless society?
- username90 7y agoThey have bank accounts and debit cards like everyone else? In Sweden everyone can get Visa and Mastercard debit cards so you can even do internet purchases everywhere with them. If you mean how they transfer money between each other, they just use smart phones and Swish. Beggars even ask for money that way.
- bryanrasmussen 7y agoAnd when you lose your card because you have a problem keeping track of physical objects do you then just go to the bank and they use the card replacing machine to issue you a new one right on the spot? That's pretty cool, I wish we had something like that here in Denmark because wow, I lose my card a lot and I have to go weeks without one. One time I lost my card, ordered a new one, the card arrived but the pin code didn't arrive, so I waited an extra 4 days for it, and called up and they said sometimes that happens and then they sent me a new one, which meant I went essentially 24 days without a card. As far as phones go, so if your phone goes out, gets lost, gets stolen, breaks you have no money because money is tightly bound to your phone. I have a difficult time respecting the architectural decisions that have been made in this new implementation of money.
- username90 7y agoIf you really lose your card that often why don't you just order two to begin with? You'd have to take precautions like this even with normal money, since if you misplaced your monthly allowance you'd still be out for several weeks.
- bryanrasmussen 7y agoI guess I never thought about ordering two cards, probably like most people I like to think it won't happen again. If I am using cash I don't carry all the cash available to me all the time, so if I lose some cash it is not quite the same as losing my method of accessing money.
- kuschku 7y agoBecause that’s not possible – you can’t have multiple cards with the same name on the same account. I know, I’ve tried after I’ve spent the entirety of january without without a card due to losing one (and the bank fucking up the replacement).
- username90 7y agoMy bank lets me do that, not sure why your bank wouldn't let you. Also these aren't really problems with a cashless society, they are problems with a partially cashless society. Society will fix these issues very quickly when there are no workarounds, like making sure that everyone can have backup cards for example.
- Mirioron 7y agoI don't believe that they'll get fixed. It'll just be filed under "huh, that's terrible!"
- 2rsf 7y agoorder an extra credit card, never use it and store it someplace safe
- kzrdude 7y ago> everyone This is unfortunately not true, because you need a personal number to have a bank account.
- 2rsf 7y agoI'm not sure it is legally true, although I have heard it is in reality
- johnlorentzson 7y agoSwish and its identification system "Bank ID" are both owned and operated by for-profit companies. The clients only run on certain operating systems and they're actively preventing custom clients. An app on your phone is not an alternative to handing a bill to someone.
- occz 7y agoWell, they get a bank account and a debit card connected to that account. It's usually free/very cheap in Sweden. As far as I understand it, the 'underbanked'-situation present in the U.S. for poor people is not present in Sweden.
- concerned_user 7y agoIn europe in general debit accounts for residents are either free or very cheap, now if you are not a resident that is different story.
- hocuspocus 7y agoAlso people receiving any kind of welfare benefits in Europe need a bank account, there's no way they are unbanked.
- tedeh 7y agoA bank account is a right for every EU citizen: https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/financial-products-and-services/bank-accounts-eu/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/financial-pr... Banks are not allowed to refuse account opening to any resident.
- jussij 7y agoFrom your link: > In some EU countries, your bank might still charge you an annual fee for this basic payment account. This fee should remain reasonable. For someone who is really poor, that annual account keeping fee is a much bigger hit to their pocket when compared to others not doing it so tough.
- username90 7y agoIt is around $20 a year, there are no people poor enough for that to be an issue in Europe.
- throwaway99674 7y agoBelieve me, there are people in Europe for who paying 20€ extra can be an issue. Even worse: unexpectedly having to pay 20€. Source: been there, done that.
- theshrike79 7y agoIt's not an unexpected 20€, more like 1-2 euros a month. Every month. At the same time.
- Mirioron 7y agoMinimum wage in Bulgaria (part of the EU) is €3,743 per year. Now imagine someone that's not full-time employed. €20 for them is not nothing. For them that would be the equivalent of someone earning $100k a year having to pay $500 to have a bank account. Note that often these low income accounts also have to pay when doing (some) transactions.
- dehrmann 7y agoIn Stockholm, I'd mostly be curious what the Romani do.
- kungtotte 7y agoGo to any number of places that still accept cash? Our major grocery store chains all still accept cash (ICA, Coop, Willys, Hemköp etc.) and at least ICA and Coop sells pretty much -everything- at their larger stores. They don't sell mattresses or furniture I guess, but you can go there with enough money and come out fully equipped to go camping for example. IKEA also accepts cash still, so you can buy your furniture there. Or even go get a nice meal there; a plate of meatballs and mashed potatoes costs 39 SEK (~3.7€, $4.1 USD). A BigMac&Co costs twice as much as a frame of reference. I (a Swede) am able to use cash every single day, and it's not an effort to do so.
- 2rsf 7y agoI guess you live near an IKEA store then. To get to IKEA and buy furniture you'll need to top up your SL card using card. In rural ("rural" meaning an hour commute from Stockholm) you'll find it even harder to get and use cash.
- kungtotte 7y agoI actually live 90 minutes outside Stockholm, going by public transport. According to https://sl.se https://sl.se it would take me 2 hours to IKEA Kungens Kurva. It's trivial to both get and use cash here.
- anonymou2 7y agoThey are discriminated against even more for the convenience of the rich.
- throw_543556 7y agoIn China, street beggars will have a sign with their QR code so you can donate to them electronically.
- willvarfar 7y agoThe article starts by using a part of central Stockholm as an example of a place where you can't pay by cash. How is it out of date?
- dehrmann 7y ago> Being able to pay through cards and phones is super convenient I was very impressed by Sydney's train between the airport and city that can take assorted contactless payments at the turnstile. None of this figuring out how many zones I need a ticket for or buying a $20 card and only using $9.50.
- lkramer 7y agoThe London Underground has the same thing. It will automatically calculate what you pay based on how many journeys and what zones you travel within, using either a dedicated card or contactless.
- Symbiote 7y agoLondon has had that for years now (rolled out 2012-2014), but I was particularly impressed to see a similar system on the buses in Belgrade.
- techsupporter 7y ago> You should always be able to pay with cash if you want. Why, other than your privacy? If I own a business, why should I be barred from choosing to not accept cash? Paper money is more labor-intensive to handle and opens my employees up to risk of being robbed for that cash or sickened by handling dirty bills. As for people who may not be able to pay electronically, why can I not choose to not have them as customers? If your argument is “because social good and we make those kinds of requirements on businesses all of the time,” I’m open to it but feel it goes much farther than privacy.
- onion2k 7y agoWhy, other than your privacy? Businesses that don't accept cash don't make any money when the infrastructure fails. If your revenue is dependent on your PoS device, Wi-Fi, ISP, payment provider, the payment provider's network infrastructure, banking network, and more that's a lot of risk. For most independent businesses having a working cash register and a bank account that enables cash deposits would be a better option than the cost of SLAs and insurance against not being open.
- yellow_postit 7y agoStoring carbon copies of credit cards is something still supported for when the network goes down, see “credit card imprinter”
- onion2k 7y agoThat depends on where you live.
- _Microft 7y agoThanks for this bit of information, now the raised print on credit cards finally makes sense.
- C1sc0cat 7y agoSo Sweden has gone almost cashless but they still have a manual process relying on embossed numbers? In the UK embossed numbers on cards are gone now
- aglavine 7y agoDon't know why an option of both anonymity and cashless isn't possible. Why couldn't a virtual wallet with just a fake name and a password exists?
- zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 7y agoPseudonymity is not anonymity. Your legal name is not really the most interesting aspect of your identity.
- aglavine 7y agoI agree, yet you can still hide most of the info with stuff like P2P transactions or encrypted transaction storage.