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Education does not equate to a successful job. I know a few career students that acquire one useless degree after another because every time they try to get a j

Education does not equate to a successful job. I know a few career students that acquire one useless degree after another because every time they try to get a job they find no one is hiring.

godelski 7y ago
Education does correlate with a more successful job and it also correlates with a better functioning society. I believe that there is plenty of evidence to suggest that there is some causal relationship (note: this does not say that higher education leads to a successful job, but rather says that higher education increases the chances of you getting a more successful job).
- blackflame7000 7y ago
  No, because you can be educated in any topic up to and including the history of the Kardashians. This in no way contributes to a better functioning society. Your entire premise that education = more intelligence is completely wrong. Would you argue a person educated by extremists correlates with a better functioning society? The only thing that betters society is the positive application of knowledge to creating something of value for others. It's not enough to learn a topic, you must actually apply it make a difference.
  - godelski 7y ago
    It is unclear to me if you are being obtuse on purpose or on accident. But I want to reiterate that trolling is not allowed on HN and it is presumed that you are going to take arguments on good faith. So I will answer as if you aren't being needlessly obtuse. We're talking about institutional education, not gaining more information. So in this discussion we're not talking about people spending their money to become more informed on Kardashians. We're talking about them going to school. As far as I'm aware, there's no school that teaches the history of the Kardashians.
    - CompBrogrammer 7y ago
      This hardly seems like responding in good faith. At any rate, I believe the poster you responded to was using hyperbole to equate "history of the Kardashians" with some degree that he or she deems "equally as useless."
      - godelski 7y ago
        I was suggesting that they weren't responding in good faith. Which in this instance was the creation of straw man.
        redis_mlc 7y ago
        Stop being a pedant. Instead of the usual "basket weaving" as an example of a useless field of study, he used "history of the Kardashians."
        godelski 7y ago
        Yes, this is called a straw man argument. People don't like them on hacker news. Please stop defending people making arguments like this.
        SamReidHughes 7y ago
        It was obviously a good faith response, and if you look at what people do versus what their degree is in, it's obvious that college education for many students might as well be studying the Kardashians. I think literally none of my relatives use their post-secondary education, except for a lawyer (who doesn't use his undergrad degree) and a guy who presumably went to culinary school. And a retired college professor, I guess.
  - sixstringtheory 7y ago
    > Education does not equate to a successful job > The only thing that betters society is the positive application of knowledge To apply knowledge, you have to first acquire it. How do you propose to do so without education?
    - thatcat 7y ago
      GP's point seems currently the improvement of society is not guaranteed by a degree because either it's based on knowledge that is not applicable to improving society or their job applies that knowledge to something net negative to extract value.
    - retpirato 7y ago
      the point is a degree in a subject where there is no money to be made is a WASTE of money. A degree is not inherently worth the time & money spent earning it if you can't make a career with it. You'll also have student loans to pay for. Don't bother saying "free college" is the issue either. There's no such thing. Somebody is paying for that "free" college in the form of higher taxes.
      - rapind 7y ago
        Education in my opinion would be a bargain compared to insane levels of military spending, gas and oil subsidies, bank bailouts, etc. This is selfish though. One, I have to pay for my kids education some day, and two, I think it's overall a good thing for our species (depending on the quality). Eventually we'll look back at college (including trades) education being free like we look now on elementary education being free.
        godelski 7y ago
        I don't have kids and I'm happy to pay for your kids to go to school. I don't want to live in a country full of idiots. It's also selfish though. Because smarter kids result in better medicine, better inventions, etc.
      - ClumsyPilot 7y ago
dahart 7y ago
> Education does not equate to a successful job Yes it does, statistically speaking. Career academics are a tiny minority of the population. The median salary of a BS degree in the US is 2x over non-degree holders. The median salary of an advanced degree is 3x. Twice the salary for having a 4 year degree, that is enormous. These stats were published very recently by the St. Louis Fed: https://files.stlouisfed.org/files/htdocs/publications/review/2019/10/15/is-college-still-worth-it-the-new-calculus-of-falling-returns.pdf https://files.stlouisfed.org/files/htdocs/publications/revie... Before I saw the statistics I would not have believed the difference is anywhere near as large as 2x.
- barry-cotter 7y ago
  How much of that is correlation and how much is causation? How much is selection effect and how much treatment effect? The average person who is capable of getting a Bachelor’s degree but doesn’t is very distant from the average high school graduate. And if you drop out of college after two years because you can’t cut it your labour market outcome is only very slightly better than a high school grad but your debt load of half of a college grad.
  - dahart 7y ago
    That study I put a link to is attempting to answer that very question methodically, and the answer in this study and others is it’s both correlation and causation. Some of the “income premium” you get for having a bachelor’s degree is cultural bias toward education (causation), some of it is having more and broader skills (causation), some of it is the many jobs that require degrees or pay higher with more education (causation), and some portion of it is due to things like whether your parents got degrees or have money (correlation). But, I’m curious, what does it actually matter in this context, if any non-zero portion of it is causation? This thread is discussing whether people are better off getting some education, whether they should spend their UBI income in search of opportunity via education, and whether going to school is a “work disincentive”. (Seem like the opposite to me.) They’re attempting to improve their lot via schooling, and there’s plenty of evidence to suggest that more education will, statistically, improve their lot at least somewhat.
ClumsyPilot 7y ago
And I know a few of all kinds of flawed or crazy people, but i would not use them as an example to prove anything Try reasoning from the other end: is a society of uneducated people likely to be successful in the 21st century?

Education does not equate to a successful job. I know a few career students that acquire one useless degree after another because every time they try to get a job they find no one is hiring.

godelski 7y ago

Education does correlate with a more successful job and it also correlates with a better functioning society. I believe that there is plenty of evidence to suggest that there is some causal relationship (note: this does not say that higher education leads to a successful job, but rather says that higher education increases the chances of you getting a more successful job).

blackflame7000 7y ago
No, because you can be educated in any topic up to and including the history of the Kardashians. This in no way contributes to a better functioning society. Your entire premise that education = more intelligence is completely wrong. Would you argue a person educated by extremists correlates with a better functioning society? The only thing that betters society is the positive application of knowledge to creating something of value for others. It's not enough to learn a topic, you must actually apply it make a difference.
- godelski 7y ago
  It is unclear to me if you are being obtuse on purpose or on accident. But I want to reiterate that trolling is not allowed on HN and it is presumed that you are going to take arguments on good faith. So I will answer as if you aren't being needlessly obtuse. We're talking about institutional education, not gaining more information. So in this discussion we're not talking about people spending their money to become more informed on Kardashians. We're talking about them going to school. As far as I'm aware, there's no school that teaches the history of the Kardashians.
  - CompBrogrammer 7y ago
    This hardly seems like responding in good faith. At any rate, I believe the poster you responded to was using hyperbole to equate "history of the Kardashians" with some degree that he or she deems "equally as useless."
    - godelski 7y ago
      I was suggesting that they weren't responding in good faith. Which in this instance was the creation of straw man.
      - redis_mlc 7y ago
        Stop being a pedant. Instead of the usual "basket weaving" as an example of a useless field of study, he used "history of the Kardashians."
        godelski 7y ago
        Yes, this is called a straw man argument. People don't like them on hacker news. Please stop defending people making arguments like this.
        SamReidHughes 7y ago
        It was obviously a good faith response, and if you look at what people do versus what their degree is in, it's obvious that college education for many students might as well be studying the Kardashians. I think literally none of my relatives use their post-secondary education, except for a lawyer (who doesn't use his undergrad degree) and a guy who presumably went to culinary school. And a retired college professor, I guess.
- sixstringtheory 7y ago
  > Education does not equate to a successful job > The only thing that betters society is the positive application of knowledge To apply knowledge, you have to first acquire it. How do you propose to do so without education?
  - thatcat 7y ago
    GP's point seems currently the improvement of society is not guaranteed by a degree because either it's based on knowledge that is not applicable to improving society or their job applies that knowledge to something net negative to extract value.
  - retpirato 7y ago
    the point is a degree in a subject where there is no money to be made is a WASTE of money. A degree is not inherently worth the time & money spent earning it if you can't make a career with it. You'll also have student loans to pay for. Don't bother saying "free college" is the issue either. There's no such thing. Somebody is paying for that "free" college in the form of higher taxes.
    - rapind 7y ago
      Education in my opinion would be a bargain compared to insane levels of military spending, gas and oil subsidies, bank bailouts, etc. This is selfish though. One, I have to pay for my kids education some day, and two, I think it's overall a good thing for our species (depending on the quality). Eventually we'll look back at college (including trades) education being free like we look now on elementary education being free.
      - godelski 7y ago
        I don't have kids and I'm happy to pay for your kids to go to school. I don't want to live in a country full of idiots. It's also selfish though. Because smarter kids result in better medicine, better inventions, etc.
    - ClumsyPilot 7y ago

dahart 7y ago

> Education does not equate to a successful job Yes it does, statistically speaking. Career academics are a tiny minority of the population. The median salary of a BS degree in the US is 2x over non-degree holders. The median salary of an advanced degree is 3x. Twice the salary for having a 4 year degree, that is enormous. These stats were published very recently by the St. Louis Fed: https://files.stlouisfed.org/files/htdocs/publications/review/2019/10/15/is-college-still-worth-it-the-new-calculus-of-falling-returns.pdf https://files.stlouisfed.org/files/htdocs/publications/revie... Before I saw the statistics I would not have believed the difference is anywhere near as large as 2x.

barry-cotter 7y ago
How much of that is correlation and how much is causation? How much is selection effect and how much treatment effect? The average person who is capable of getting a Bachelor’s degree but doesn’t is very distant from the average high school graduate. And if you drop out of college after two years because you can’t cut it your labour market outcome is only very slightly better than a high school grad but your debt load of half of a college grad.
- dahart 7y ago
  That study I put a link to is attempting to answer that very question methodically, and the answer in this study and others is it’s both correlation and causation. Some of the “income premium” you get for having a bachelor’s degree is cultural bias toward education (causation), some of it is having more and broader skills (causation), some of it is the many jobs that require degrees or pay higher with more education (causation), and some portion of it is due to things like whether your parents got degrees or have money (correlation). But, I’m curious, what does it actually matter in this context, if any non-zero portion of it is causation? This thread is discussing whether people are better off getting some education, whether they should spend their UBI income in search of opportunity via education, and whether going to school is a “work disincentive”. (Seem like the opposite to me.) They’re attempting to improve their lot via schooling, and there’s plenty of evidence to suggest that more education will, statistically, improve their lot at least somewhat.

ClumsyPilot 7y ago

And I know a few of all kinds of flawed or crazy people, but i would not use them as an example to prove anything Try reasoning from the other end: is a society of uneducated people likely to be successful in the 21st century?