4 ms·

The point of UBI is not to fund people's vanity adventures in education. It's to support people who would otherwise be starving or homeless without a job. Rega

The point of UBI is not to fund people's vanity adventures in education. It's to support people who would otherwise be starving or homeless without a job. Regarding "sickness", the severity is important to know. If UBI enables people with slight depression issues to just give up working entirely, UBI could be entirely counterproductive by accelerating depression's spirals of inactivity. And this completely ignored the issue of inflation that comes with society wide UBI. The whole notion of UBI is nonsense. Rather than throwing money at people to spend on broken institutions like Education and Healthcare, let's reform these institutions in the first place to make them more affordable and effective.

godelski 7y ago
> The point of UBI is not to fund people's vanity adventures in education. It's to support people who would otherwise be starving or homeless without a job. Who gave this strict definition. In my opinion, the point of UBI is to benefit society. I do think people being more educated benefits society as a whole, and thus I think people using their UBI on this is beneficial.
einpoklum 7y ago
So, education is a "vanity adventure"? Perhaps if you're a person who looks at your cleaners or servers or cashiers as people with no potential for self-betterment; as people who are unable to expand their horizons. Ugh.
- tic_tac 7y ago
  As it is structured today, yes it is. The majority of people study Psychology, Sociology, Economics or something of that nature then go on to make power point slides or enter numbers in Excel all day for the rest of their lives. Enabling this sort of broken system is exactly what UBI as currently imagined will do. The problem with progressive crusades like UBI is that they completely ignore reality... UBI will only increase the cost of education while simultaneously decreasing its value as a signaling mechanism, which is where the majority of modern education's value lies in the first place. Let me repeat from my original comment: UBI on a societal scale will only cause inflation without an increase in real income. It's a true waste of money and nonsensical in practice. That's why it's so horrifying to see people who should know better continue to try to meme it into existence and simply reminds all sober observers how divorced modern "progressivism" is from reality.
  - r-w 7y ago
    > […] its value as a signaling mechanism, which is where the majority of modern education's value lies in the first place. I’m not sure education is a very high-resolution or effective signal for much, and I think its dilution as a signal would help force us to find a better one. I’m curious though, given how self-assured you seem: what do you think education signals right now?
    - tic_tac 7y ago
      Education signals that you are "better" than those with worse education. Smarter, harder working, etc. We need to create better options for students. We can do this by refocusing education on learning practical skills for real world jobs rather than maintaining an educational system built upon a foundation over 1000 years old that up until 100 or so years ago was intended for the elites and scholars, not the average person looking for a job.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - einpoklum 7y ago
        That would not be "better", that would be myopic: Practical skills are only a part of what an education is or can be; information and skills which are not practical are still quite significant for us and for society at large; practicality changes over time; and the determination of what is and isn't practical is itself quite contentious. A lot of our education - practical or otherwise - may be useless fluff, or even ideologically biased. But that's mostly not because of the chosen discipline.
hitpointdrew 7y ago
> The point of UBI is not to fund people's vanity adventures in education. That is YOUR OPINION of what UBI should be. It happens to be wrong. What people do with the money isn't the point of UBI at all. The point is to improve their lives, and boost the economy. Who cares what specific the money is spent on if it is making people healthier, less stressed, and happier?
- Loughla 7y ago
  >Who cares what specific the money is spent on if it is making people healthier, less stressed, and happier? And here, in one sentence, is why we will NEVER see UBI in the United States of America. There is no ability to be the moral whip and maintain control over someone else's choices to make sure they don't 'waste my money'. Therefore, it will never happen. In the US, at least, it's not about doing what's right. It's not about making sure people are healthier, less stressed, and happier. It's about making sure they live the 'best' life they can, as defined by groups like the "moral majority".
  - hitpointdrew 7y ago
    > And here, in one sentence, is why we will NEVER see UBI. OK sure pal. UBI will happen without question in the USA. Probably in 2024.
    - Loughla 7y ago
      Do you have any supporting arguments or reasons for that?
      - hitpointdrew 7y ago
        https://movehumanityforward.com/ https://movehumanityforward.com/ site just launched yesterday, received 3M in donations within 24hours.
trianglem 7y ago
Of course the UBI is for personal growth and development even if it isn’t a guaranteed success. People have a fallback and would be more likely to take risks.
purerandomness 7y ago
> The point of UBI is not to fund people's vanity adventures in education What a twisted way to phrase "train for their next career step, which will make them earn more money, so the state gets more tax money than before" But for you, it's always "vanity adventures" when it's other people's education, right?
mbrameld 7y ago
> If UBI enables people with slight depression issues to just give up working entirely, UBI could be entirely counterproductive by accelerating depression's spirals of inactivity. What if it enables those same people to take the time off work they need to treat their depression? Getting help takes enormous energy that a depressed person likely doesn't have if they're spending all their energy just trying to survive.

godelski 7y ago

> The point of UBI is not to fund people's vanity adventures in education. It's to support people who would otherwise be starving or homeless without a job. Who gave this strict definition. In my opinion, the point of UBI is to benefit society. I do think people being more educated benefits society as a whole, and thus I think people using their UBI on this is beneficial.

einpoklum 7y ago

So, education is a "vanity adventure"? Perhaps if you're a person who looks at your cleaners or servers or cashiers as people with no potential for self-betterment; as people who are unable to expand their horizons. Ugh.

tic_tac 7y ago
As it is structured today, yes it is. The majority of people study Psychology, Sociology, Economics or something of that nature then go on to make power point slides or enter numbers in Excel all day for the rest of their lives. Enabling this sort of broken system is exactly what UBI as currently imagined will do. The problem with progressive crusades like UBI is that they completely ignore reality... UBI will only increase the cost of education while simultaneously decreasing its value as a signaling mechanism, which is where the majority of modern education's value lies in the first place. Let me repeat from my original comment: UBI on a societal scale will only cause inflation without an increase in real income. It's a true waste of money and nonsensical in practice. That's why it's so horrifying to see people who should know better continue to try to meme it into existence and simply reminds all sober observers how divorced modern "progressivism" is from reality.
- r-w 7y ago
  > […] its value as a signaling mechanism, which is where the majority of modern education's value lies in the first place. I’m not sure education is a very high-resolution or effective signal for much, and I think its dilution as a signal would help force us to find a better one. I’m curious though, given how self-assured you seem: what do you think education signals right now?
  - tic_tac 7y ago
    Education signals that you are "better" than those with worse education. Smarter, harder working, etc. We need to create better options for students. We can do this by refocusing education on learning practical skills for real world jobs rather than maintaining an educational system built upon a foundation over 1000 years old that up until 100 or so years ago was intended for the elites and scholars, not the average person looking for a job.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - einpoklum 7y ago
      That would not be "better", that would be myopic: Practical skills are only a part of what an education is or can be; information and skills which are not practical are still quite significant for us and for society at large; practicality changes over time; and the determination of what is and isn't practical is itself quite contentious. A lot of our education - practical or otherwise - may be useless fluff, or even ideologically biased. But that's mostly not because of the chosen discipline.

hitpointdrew 7y ago

> The point of UBI is not to fund people's vanity adventures in education. That is YOUR OPINION of what UBI should be. It happens to be wrong. What people do with the money isn't the point of UBI at all. The point is to improve their lives, and boost the economy. Who cares what specific the money is spent on if it is making people healthier, less stressed, and happier?

Loughla 7y ago
>Who cares what specific the money is spent on if it is making people healthier, less stressed, and happier? And here, in one sentence, is why we will NEVER see UBI in the United States of America. There is no ability to be the moral whip and maintain control over someone else's choices to make sure they don't 'waste my money'. Therefore, it will never happen. In the US, at least, it's not about doing what's right. It's not about making sure people are healthier, less stressed, and happier. It's about making sure they live the 'best' life they can, as defined by groups like the "moral majority".
- hitpointdrew 7y ago
  > And here, in one sentence, is why we will NEVER see UBI. OK sure pal. UBI will happen without question in the USA. Probably in 2024.
  - Loughla 7y ago
    Do you have any supporting arguments or reasons for that?
    - hitpointdrew 7y ago
      https://movehumanityforward.com/ https://movehumanityforward.com/ site just launched yesterday, received 3M in donations within 24hours.

trianglem 7y ago

Of course the UBI is for personal growth and development even if it isn’t a guaranteed success. People have a fallback and would be more likely to take risks.

purerandomness 7y ago

> The point of UBI is not to fund people's vanity adventures in education What a twisted way to phrase "train for their next career step, which will make them earn more money, so the state gets more tax money than before" But for you, it's always "vanity adventures" when it's other people's education, right?

mbrameld 7y ago

> If UBI enables people with slight depression issues to just give up working entirely, UBI could be entirely counterproductive by accelerating depression's spirals of inactivity. What if it enables those same people to take the time off work they need to treat their depression? Getting help takes enormous energy that a depressed person likely doesn't have if they're spending all their energy just trying to survive.