16 ms·

Preface: there's no excuse for drivers being assholes to bikers (yelling, speeding, worse). But as a driver, our resentment for bike commuters doesn't just com

by RickS 7y ago

Preface: there's no excuse for drivers being assholes to bikers (yelling, speeding, worse). But as a driver, our resentment for bike commuters doesn't just come from entitlement (though somewhat, yes). It comes from fear, just like yours. I really don't want to accidentally kill anyone, and bikers are one of the only encounters in my daily life when I feel like that might happen. I wish it were safer for bikers. Our infrastructure is terrible. The bike lanes are spotty and bad when they exist. Lane separation is more symbolic than physical. I get that bikers want to be on the road anyway, and that conceptually, it should be a shared space. But the reality is that our roads are ill suited for the task, catastrophically and obviously dangerous, and people insist on trying it anyway because in principle, it should work. It feels like bikers think they're the only ones shouldering the risk of having their lives destroyed if things go sideways. As a driver, that's not how it feels. Maiming or killing a biker would be strictly worse for the biker, but I'm not excited about living in the aftermath either. It feels like bikers increase the risk of a terrible thing happening to both of us. For me, that's what makes it a moral gray area: bikers definitely have the environmental upper hand. But they do it by engaging in activity that is borderline reckless given the reality of American roads. I find it difficult to enthusiastically encourage that. Open to having my views changed on this.

jefurii 7y ago
As a kid my dad commuted to work on a bike and he made me take a class at a local bike store with actual course materials and a totally-not-official bike license before he let me ride on the street. In the late 1970s-early 1980s when cyclists started calling for bike lanes and changes to laws, part of the deal was that cyclists would adopt smart habits AKA the rules of the road, that helped them become part of a shared car-bike system. Things like wearing helmets, signaling turns, riding in the same direction as traffic. A lot of the rules are designed to make cyclists' behavior less unpredictable and thus safer. I see this system breaking down when cyclists do dumb things like riding the wrong way on a street and swerving across lanes. (I'm probably showing my age but I mostly notice this from fixed-gear cyclists). As a mostly car driver myself now, I want to ensure that bikes are safe. But it requires the cooperation
- jolmg 7y ago
  > riding in the same direction as traffic I've never understood how riding in the same direction is safer. The rider can't see me, so it feels like I'm creeping up on them. I feel there should be some degree of coordination when a car is approaching a bike, some eye contact, you know? But that can't be done when they're riding in the same direction. I've never ridden a bike in traffic before, but I'm sure I'd feel really nervous to have an unknown set of cars approaching me from behind and passing by me unexpectedly. Is it about reducing the relative velocity between them? I'm sure it's still significantly high even when going in the same direction. EDIT: Here, I'm mostly thinking in the context of highways. It may be that the rule makes more sense in a city- or suburban-like environment.
  - lutorm 7y ago
    I'm not sure it matters much on an uninterrupted stretch of road (except you conflict with the bicycles being on the right side of the road...) But when you enter an intersection from the opposite direction the drivers are expecting you to, it's pretty clear that it's not safer.
    - tropo 7y ago
      Drivers expect people to enter intersections from both directions on the crosswalks, which is where normal non-athlete bicycle users need to be for safety. This is a solved problem if we keep all the small unarmored travelers (walking, bicycling, crawling, etc.) together on the sidewalk and crosswalk.
      - saltcured 7y ago
        As someone who has witnessed this accident or near-accident unfold several times, the difference is speed how quickly the opposing cyclist or pedestrian moves from invisible or out-of-range to collision range. Bicycles and other wheeled vehicles like scooters and skateboards move much faster than pedestrians. Even a conscientious driver who watches for pedestrians may miss a cyclist who is riding "the wrong way" in the time it takes the driver to swivel their attention among the various hazard zones that need to be checked when making turns. A driver needs to check both ways in a sequence, with the final visual check being for traffic in the incoming lanes they are about to enter or cross. They check for pedestrians coming the opposite way first, but the slow rate of pedestrian movement means that the conditions do not change dramatically while the driver attention switches to the opposite direction. However, a cyclist/skater/scooter flying into the picture from the blind side is at great risk of collision with the driver who is now checking the opposite direction and initiating their maneuver.
francisofascii 7y ago
As a biker, I think I distinctly remember the bad experiences and don't always consider the majority of time motorists are doing the right thing. Those bad experiences stick with you, and can fester, which may cause some bikers to overly assert their place out of anger or resentment. It would be good to for both "sides" to remember most people are trying not to be an asshole.
chrisan 7y ago
> But the reality is that our roads are ill suited for the task, catastrophically and obviously dangerous, and people insist on trying it anyway because in principle, it should work. The vast majority of roads are ill suited for bikes in our area (Asheville NC). The roads are narrow, curvy, blind and there is rarely even a shoulder. Bikers are in danger so much I don't know how they stomach it. I see them a lot of side walks which just endangers pedestrians. It seems they cause traffic build up (people wanting to pass safely) which just enrages drivers and want to lash out at these "idiots" for being on these kinda roads in the first place.
r00fus 7y ago
It's up to society to make this work for both groups. Doing what NY did and separating the bike lane from car lanes (ideally with parked cars in between) is what will keep people safe and both groups happy. Also it should be mandatory for bikers to wear lights - not just reflectors - so as to be almost painfully visible. It's not difficult to put rear blinkers + front light on a bike.
sirsar 7y ago
> bikers definitely have the environmental upper hand. But they do it by engaging in activity that is borderline reckless given the reality of American roads. I find it difficult to enthusiastically encourage that. > Open to having my views changed on this. If you agree that a world with more cyclists would be better (for the environment, for safety, maybe for public health), how do you suggest we get there? Encouraging change towards a better world often requires swimming upstream, shouldering some stress and discomfort and pressure, in order to exert pressure back on the system one wants to change. Nobody will build safer bicycle infrastructure if nobody rides bicycles.
cyclist12345 7y ago
I've cycle commuted for significant periods of my life and heard that kind of argument from motorists plenty of times. It simply doesn't match the reality of how drivers behave. First, motorists often just have no idea how to drive sensibly around bikes and do weird things that contravene road laws and common sense - not leaving any passing margin, passing way too close right before red lights, cutting off bikes that they've just overtaken to turn right. Second, motorists will get aggressive and impatient with cyclists that are riding in the most perfectly considerate and legal way. I've seen motorists get irritated with cyclists if they get delayed more than a second or two. That happens all the time with other cars - if the car in front of you is turning, it's going to delay you the same amount as if you have to slow down to safely overtake a cyclist. It goes both ways too - some motorists get upset if you ride in a textbook manner (occupying a lane as needed, doing hook turns, etc) and some get upset if you don't do that (they think you should be riding in the gutter or the sidewalk or whatever). Third, if you look around, you'll see cars breaking minor traffic laws more frequently than people. In my old neighbourhood I kept an eye on how often different vehicles blew through stop signs, and cars did it with frequency and in far more dangerous ways than bikes. Just look at the statistics about how many deaths are attributed to cars behaving badly versus bikes. The only way I can explain it is two things. First, people get confused when they have to interact with cyclists, because they don't really know what they're doing, and as a result get frustrated and angry. Second, motorists are primed to be annoyed at cyclists because they're different. It's hard to get annoyed at the car in front of you delaying you by a few seconds by its simple presence, because you yourself are also a person in a car. The complaints about cyclists doing this that and the other are red herrings - if cyclists stopped doing them, the people complaining would find another way to rationalize their frustration. I think all road users should up their game, but it's cars that are the big problem.
jbay808 7y ago
> It feels like bikers increase the risk of a terrible thing happening to both of us. From the biker's perspective, your driving a car on the road is increasing the risk of something bad happening to both of you. I'm not disputing that you have no choice but to drive a car on the road, but it's quite possible that the biker is in the same situation.
mindslight 7y ago
What type of situations are you constantly experiencing that make you feel this way? Bikes riding against traffic to the right of me (ie at me), and bikes coming off the sidewalk are really the only two situations that get my hackles up. And these are better categorized as poor individual behavior rather than putting it on all bikers. My experience is that I used to bike often and now I don't. So this probably alleviates my surprise at say an inexperienced biker riding in the gutter, coming up on a parked car, and jutting out at the last minute. But a little bit of riding would get you this sense too - its probably the best way to change your perspective. It will also give you the superpower of knowing when a car is going to change lanes before it puts on its blinker. When riding, my biggest worry was being creamed from behind on non-city roads where traffic is going much faster, and drivers tend to space out or expect to pass within inches. But this tension is totally on the specific drivers themselves, and the easy answer is for them to explicitly pass rather than viewing a bike as some kind of roadside decoration. FWIW I wasn't a fan of bike lanes in general. They're redundant and constraining, creating an expectation that you'll ride in the door zone or through road hazards, backed up by a solid white line. I'd rather explicitly share the right lane with cars rather than have a fake division. (Well-done bike lanes like modern NYC obviously change this)

by RickS 7y ago

jefurii 7y ago

As a kid my dad commuted to work on a bike and he made me take a class at a local bike store with actual course materials and a totally-not-official bike license before he let me ride on the street. In the late 1970s-early 1980s when cyclists started calling for bike lanes and changes to laws, part of the deal was that cyclists would adopt smart habits AKA the rules of the road, that helped them become part of a shared car-bike system. Things like wearing helmets, signaling turns, riding in the same direction as traffic. A lot of the rules are designed to make cyclists' behavior less unpredictable and thus safer. I see this system breaking down when cyclists do dumb things like riding the wrong way on a street and swerving across lanes. (I'm probably showing my age but I mostly notice this from fixed-gear cyclists). As a mostly car driver myself now, I want to ensure that bikes are safe. But it requires the cooperation

jolmg 7y ago
> riding in the same direction as traffic I've never understood how riding in the same direction is safer. The rider can't see me, so it feels like I'm creeping up on them. I feel there should be some degree of coordination when a car is approaching a bike, some eye contact, you know? But that can't be done when they're riding in the same direction. I've never ridden a bike in traffic before, but I'm sure I'd feel really nervous to have an unknown set of cars approaching me from behind and passing by me unexpectedly. Is it about reducing the relative velocity between them? I'm sure it's still significantly high even when going in the same direction. EDIT: Here, I'm mostly thinking in the context of highways. It may be that the rule makes more sense in a city- or suburban-like environment.
- lutorm 7y ago
  I'm not sure it matters much on an uninterrupted stretch of road (except you conflict with the bicycles being on the right side of the road...) But when you enter an intersection from the opposite direction the drivers are expecting you to, it's pretty clear that it's not safer.
  - tropo 7y ago
    Drivers expect people to enter intersections from both directions on the crosswalks, which is where normal non-athlete bicycle users need to be for safety. This is a solved problem if we keep all the small unarmored travelers (walking, bicycling, crawling, etc.) together on the sidewalk and crosswalk.
    - saltcured 7y ago
      As someone who has witnessed this accident or near-accident unfold several times, the difference is speed how quickly the opposing cyclist or pedestrian moves from invisible or out-of-range to collision range. Bicycles and other wheeled vehicles like scooters and skateboards move much faster than pedestrians. Even a conscientious driver who watches for pedestrians may miss a cyclist who is riding "the wrong way" in the time it takes the driver to swivel their attention among the various hazard zones that need to be checked when making turns. A driver needs to check both ways in a sequence, with the final visual check being for traffic in the incoming lanes they are about to enter or cross. They check for pedestrians coming the opposite way first, but the slow rate of pedestrian movement means that the conditions do not change dramatically while the driver attention switches to the opposite direction. However, a cyclist/skater/scooter flying into the picture from the blind side is at great risk of collision with the driver who is now checking the opposite direction and initiating their maneuver.

francisofascii 7y ago

As a biker, I think I distinctly remember the bad experiences and don't always consider the majority of time motorists are doing the right thing. Those bad experiences stick with you, and can fester, which may cause some bikers to overly assert their place out of anger or resentment. It would be good to for both "sides" to remember most people are trying not to be an asshole.

chrisan 7y ago

> But the reality is that our roads are ill suited for the task, catastrophically and obviously dangerous, and people insist on trying it anyway because in principle, it should work. The vast majority of roads are ill suited for bikes in our area (Asheville NC). The roads are narrow, curvy, blind and there is rarely even a shoulder. Bikers are in danger so much I don't know how they stomach it. I see them a lot of side walks which just endangers pedestrians. It seems they cause traffic build up (people wanting to pass safely) which just enrages drivers and want to lash out at these "idiots" for being on these kinda roads in the first place.

r00fus 7y ago

It's up to society to make this work for both groups. Doing what NY did and separating the bike lane from car lanes (ideally with parked cars in between) is what will keep people safe and both groups happy. Also it should be mandatory for bikers to wear lights - not just reflectors - so as to be almost painfully visible. It's not difficult to put rear blinkers + front light on a bike.

sirsar 7y ago

> bikers definitely have the environmental upper hand. But they do it by engaging in activity that is borderline reckless given the reality of American roads. I find it difficult to enthusiastically encourage that. > Open to having my views changed on this. If you agree that a world with more cyclists would be better (for the environment, for safety, maybe for public health), how do you suggest we get there? Encouraging change towards a better world often requires swimming upstream, shouldering some stress and discomfort and pressure, in order to exert pressure back on the system one wants to change. Nobody will build safer bicycle infrastructure if nobody rides bicycles.

cyclist12345 7y ago

I've cycle commuted for significant periods of my life and heard that kind of argument from motorists plenty of times. It simply doesn't match the reality of how drivers behave. First, motorists often just have no idea how to drive sensibly around bikes and do weird things that contravene road laws and common sense - not leaving any passing margin, passing way too close right before red lights, cutting off bikes that they've just overtaken to turn right. Second, motorists will get aggressive and impatient with cyclists that are riding in the most perfectly considerate and legal way. I've seen motorists get irritated with cyclists if they get delayed more than a second or two. That happens all the time with other cars - if the car in front of you is turning, it's going to delay you the same amount as if you have to slow down to safely overtake a cyclist. It goes both ways too - some motorists get upset if you ride in a textbook manner (occupying a lane as needed, doing hook turns, etc) and some get upset if you don't do that (they think you should be riding in the gutter or the sidewalk or whatever). Third, if you look around, you'll see cars breaking minor traffic laws more frequently than people. In my old neighbourhood I kept an eye on how often different vehicles blew through stop signs, and cars did it with frequency and in far more dangerous ways than bikes. Just look at the statistics about how many deaths are attributed to cars behaving badly versus bikes. The only way I can explain it is two things. First, people get confused when they have to interact with cyclists, because they don't really know what they're doing, and as a result get frustrated and angry. Second, motorists are primed to be annoyed at cyclists because they're different. It's hard to get annoyed at the car in front of you delaying you by a few seconds by its simple presence, because you yourself are also a person in a car. The complaints about cyclists doing this that and the other are red herrings - if cyclists stopped doing them, the people complaining would find another way to rationalize their frustration. I think all road users should up their game, but it's cars that are the big problem.

jbay808 7y ago

> It feels like bikers increase the risk of a terrible thing happening to both of us. From the biker's perspective, your driving a car on the road is increasing the risk of something bad happening to both of you. I'm not disputing that you have no choice but to drive a car on the road, but it's quite possible that the biker is in the same situation.

mindslight 7y ago

What type of situations are you constantly experiencing that make you feel this way? Bikes riding against traffic to the right of me (ie at me), and bikes coming off the sidewalk are really the only two situations that get my hackles up. And these are better categorized as poor individual behavior rather than putting it on all bikers. My experience is that I used to bike often and now I don't. So this probably alleviates my surprise at say an inexperienced biker riding in the gutter, coming up on a parked car, and jutting out at the last minute. But a little bit of riding would get you this sense too - its probably the best way to change your perspective. It will also give you the superpower of knowing when a car is going to change lanes before it puts on its blinker. When riding, my biggest worry was being creamed from behind on non-city roads where traffic is going much faster, and drivers tend to space out or expect to pass within inches. But this tension is totally on the specific drivers themselves, and the easy answer is for them to explicitly pass rather than viewing a bike as some kind of roadside decoration. FWIW I wasn't a fan of bike lanes in general. They're redundant and constraining, creating an expectation that you'll ride in the door zone or through road hazards, backed up by a solid white line. I'd rather explicitly share the right lane with cars rather than have a fake division. (Well-done bike lanes like modern NYC obviously change this)