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Like so many cryptocurrency projects, Filecoin just seems like a solution in search of a problem more than anything else. What exact problem is Filecoin trying

Like so many cryptocurrency projects, Filecoin just seems like a solution in search of a problem more than anything else. What exact problem is Filecoin trying to solve that's not possible with current infrastructure? It seems like the decentralization adds a lot of overhead and complexity for no benefit. The main argument that I hear is that somehow Filecoin will be cheaper than centralized competitors. However, services such as Backblaze are already quite efficient. Why exactly would costs be cheaper and why can't Backblaze do those same things and overtake Filecoin?

imglorp 7y ago
They needed to compensate providers of storage for IPFS. The challenge is how to prove that a provider has your block and that they aren't double dipping, ie claiming redundancy when they only are storing one copy.
- Ygg2 7y ago
  That's pretty neat. I wonder if similar could be achieved for processing power. Distribted hosting ftw.
  - Arathorn 7y ago
    that's what https://golem.network/ https://golem.network/ is trying to do.
- momack2 7y ago
  Exactly. IPFS has millions of end users and hundreds of apps storing data on the decentralized network, creating demand for decentralized persistence of that data. Current solution is to either run your own IPFS node or pay a pinning service to run a node persisting your IPFS data for you - but even better to have a highly resilient marketplace of storage nodes that can store redundant copies!
  - darkcha0s 7y ago
    Where are you getting “millions of end users” from? A quick google search doesn’t return anything, and that seems a lot for a relatively unknown project
    - NickBusey 7y ago
      IPFS is by no means 'relatively unknown'. It is used in dozens of projects. See: https://github.com/ipfs/awesome-ipfs https://github.com/ipfs/awesome-ipfs
      - marknadal 7y ago
        I think parent was saying the projects using IPFS are relatively unknown, so where are the millions come from? I have the same question. In contrast, GUN, has 20M+ downloads/month from known sources: Internet Archive, HackerNoon, etc. (https://github.com/amark/gun https://github.com/amark/gun see jsdelivr download stats).
        notthegunlobby 7y ago
        lol it's not a HN post about a decentralized project without marknadal shitting on it and shilling GUN. got a running bet it always happens, and you don't disappoint <3 -- keep it up!
        whyrusleeping 7y ago
        Yeah, Its pretty much a staple. Despite repeated attempts by the mods to get it to stop.
        marknadal 7y ago
        IPFS, a YC company, is trying to censor Open Source competitors? Interesting. What are you scared of?
msvan 7y ago
Presumably they think decentralization is a benefit in its own right.
programmarchy 7y ago
Technical complexity isn't the only dimension. Surveillance capitalism and privatized censorship are byproducts of data centralization. Cryptocurrency has a political aspect. Why view it only through a lens of technical complexity?
wmf 7y ago
If a decentralized system is using spare resources that are literally free it could theoretically be cheaper than a business that pays for hardware. It will be interesting to see if that works in practice.
- lalaland1125 7y ago
  One issue is that you are always paying for power. Some back of the napkin calculations indicate that Backblaze's prices are low enough that it's not worth it to compete unless you are getting more than 1 terrabyte per 30 watts as otherwise the power costs alone would kill you. That's going to be a pretty hard target to hit with "spare free resources" (not to mention hardware degradation and capital costs).
  - p1necone 7y ago
    You're always paying for power regardless of whether you're offering your unused drive space on a distributed system.
    - klodolph 7y ago
      Hard drives consume less power when idle, like CPUs.
      - p1necone 7y ago
        I imagine that extra power consumption has to be less than the combination of non idle HDDs and all of the other infrastructure at backblaze, no? And they're still going to be idle most of the time. And there's the added likelihood that people providing hdd space on filecoin are not going to even measure the impact of extra power consumption, they're just going to notice the revenue. (Not that this is a good thing, if someone was losing money, they should know)
  - klodolph 7y ago
    Agreed. Cloud storage is a commodity race to the bottom. Cloud providers want you to use their storage systems because it means that you’ll also use their more profitable associated services in order to save money on egress. Accumulate enough data, and you’re locked in because of the high cost to migrate. Because IO dominates so many workloads, you already get a bunch of bytes for cheap when you are running a cloud storage provider. It’s already dirt cheap and potentially a loss leader (I suspect). So, I have a hard time seeing how “spare free resources” are going to be competitive when you factor in the network, capital costs, power, etc. Then there’s some unknown legal risk that you are e.g. accepting money to distribute child porn to people, just like there’s a legal risk associated with running a Tor node (not commenting on whether this is just or not). Just my opinion. Not speaking on behalf of anyone here.
ajhurliman 7y ago
Storing and serving files a lot cheaper and more reliably than current cloud providers seems like something people actually want.
- lalaland1125 7y ago
  Yes, but does Filecoin actually get you there? And if so, how and why?
- arcticbull 7y ago
  Right but you actually have to be able to do that, and introducing inefficiency in the form of blockchain doesn't seem like a way to make anything cheaper.
DennisP 7y ago
I don't want to start a business that pays a cloud service for storage. I want to write an application and set it free on the internet to run all by itself.
johnmarcus 7y ago
Like other cryptos, Filecoins founders don't get rich off existing and usually better solutions.
Taek 7y ago
Founder of another decentralized storage product here: Decentralized storage is going to replace the cloud. We have a working platform today with thousands (and growing) of users which is cheaper, faster, and more reliable than the centralized alternative. One of the major challenges of the cloud today is deplatforming and loss of ownership, two things that are squarely handled by decentralization. It opens the door to innovation and allows builders a lot more freedom in how they approach solving modern problems. Decentralization also ends up being a huge element in cost reduction. Our platform uses dozens of hosts at one to store and serve data, which means any given host only needs about 95% uptime. The network is completely open and anyone with good infra can join at any time, making revenue, and competing, which drives prices down. We're currently at 1/10th of Amazon. Decentralization also makes it possible to build apps that don't shut down. Users today have to worry about the health of a parent company when choosing a product, with many people having been displayed by a "Google RSS Reader is shutting down" message. That problem disappears with decentralized infra. It may take some time for the rest of the world to catch on, but decentralization is just a better way to build apps.
- carterehsmith 7y ago
  >> Our platform uses dozens of hosts >> We're currently at 1/10th of Amazon. Curious, where is the "1/10th of Amazon" coming from?
  - Taek 7y ago
    https://siastats.info/storage_pricing https://siastats.info/storage_pricing
arcticbull 7y ago
What sets us apart: Inefficiency and a higher cost basis than any cloud storage providers due to our devout adherence to blockchain.

imglorp 7y ago

They needed to compensate providers of storage for IPFS. The challenge is how to prove that a provider has your block and that they aren't double dipping, ie claiming redundancy when they only are storing one copy.

Ygg2 7y ago
That's pretty neat. I wonder if similar could be achieved for processing power. Distribted hosting ftw.
- Arathorn 7y ago
  that's what https://golem.network/ https://golem.network/ is trying to do.
momack2 7y ago
Exactly. IPFS has millions of end users and hundreds of apps storing data on the decentralized network, creating demand for decentralized persistence of that data. Current solution is to either run your own IPFS node or pay a pinning service to run a node persisting your IPFS data for you - but even better to have a highly resilient marketplace of storage nodes that can store redundant copies!
- darkcha0s 7y ago
  Where are you getting “millions of end users” from? A quick google search doesn’t return anything, and that seems a lot for a relatively unknown project
  - NickBusey 7y ago
    IPFS is by no means 'relatively unknown'. It is used in dozens of projects. See: https://github.com/ipfs/awesome-ipfs https://github.com/ipfs/awesome-ipfs
    - marknadal 7y ago
      I think parent was saying the projects using IPFS are relatively unknown, so where are the millions come from? I have the same question. In contrast, GUN, has 20M+ downloads/month from known sources: Internet Archive, HackerNoon, etc. (https://github.com/amark/gun https://github.com/amark/gun see jsdelivr download stats).
      - notthegunlobby 7y ago
        lol it's not a HN post about a decentralized project without marknadal shitting on it and shilling GUN. got a running bet it always happens, and you don't disappoint <3 -- keep it up!
        whyrusleeping 7y ago
        Yeah, Its pretty much a staple. Despite repeated attempts by the mods to get it to stop.
        marknadal 7y ago
        IPFS, a YC company, is trying to censor Open Source competitors? Interesting. What are you scared of?

msvan 7y ago

Presumably they think decentralization is a benefit in its own right.

programmarchy 7y ago

Technical complexity isn't the only dimension. Surveillance capitalism and privatized censorship are byproducts of data centralization. Cryptocurrency has a political aspect. Why view it only through a lens of technical complexity?

wmf 7y ago

If a decentralized system is using spare resources that are literally free it could theoretically be cheaper than a business that pays for hardware. It will be interesting to see if that works in practice.

lalaland1125 7y ago
One issue is that you are always paying for power. Some back of the napkin calculations indicate that Backblaze's prices are low enough that it's not worth it to compete unless you are getting more than 1 terrabyte per 30 watts as otherwise the power costs alone would kill you. That's going to be a pretty hard target to hit with "spare free resources" (not to mention hardware degradation and capital costs).
- p1necone 7y ago
  You're always paying for power regardless of whether you're offering your unused drive space on a distributed system.
  - klodolph 7y ago
    Hard drives consume less power when idle, like CPUs.
    - p1necone 7y ago
      I imagine that extra power consumption has to be less than the combination of non idle HDDs and all of the other infrastructure at backblaze, no? And they're still going to be idle most of the time. And there's the added likelihood that people providing hdd space on filecoin are not going to even measure the impact of extra power consumption, they're just going to notice the revenue. (Not that this is a good thing, if someone was losing money, they should know)
- klodolph 7y ago
  Agreed. Cloud storage is a commodity race to the bottom. Cloud providers want you to use their storage systems because it means that you’ll also use their more profitable associated services in order to save money on egress. Accumulate enough data, and you’re locked in because of the high cost to migrate. Because IO dominates so many workloads, you already get a bunch of bytes for cheap when you are running a cloud storage provider. It’s already dirt cheap and potentially a loss leader (I suspect). So, I have a hard time seeing how “spare free resources” are going to be competitive when you factor in the network, capital costs, power, etc. Then there’s some unknown legal risk that you are e.g. accepting money to distribute child porn to people, just like there’s a legal risk associated with running a Tor node (not commenting on whether this is just or not). Just my opinion. Not speaking on behalf of anyone here.

ajhurliman 7y ago

Storing and serving files a lot cheaper and more reliably than current cloud providers seems like something people actually want.

lalaland1125 7y ago
Yes, but does Filecoin actually get you there? And if so, how and why?
arcticbull 7y ago
Right but you actually have to be able to do that, and introducing inefficiency in the form of blockchain doesn't seem like a way to make anything cheaper.

DennisP 7y ago

I don't want to start a business that pays a cloud service for storage. I want to write an application and set it free on the internet to run all by itself.

johnmarcus 7y ago

Like other cryptos, Filecoins founders don't get rich off existing and usually better solutions.

Taek 7y ago

Founder of another decentralized storage product here: Decentralized storage is going to replace the cloud. We have a working platform today with thousands (and growing) of users which is cheaper, faster, and more reliable than the centralized alternative. One of the major challenges of the cloud today is deplatforming and loss of ownership, two things that are squarely handled by decentralization. It opens the door to innovation and allows builders a lot more freedom in how they approach solving modern problems. Decentralization also ends up being a huge element in cost reduction. Our platform uses dozens of hosts at one to store and serve data, which means any given host only needs about 95% uptime. The network is completely open and anyone with good infra can join at any time, making revenue, and competing, which drives prices down. We're currently at 1/10th of Amazon. Decentralization also makes it possible to build apps that don't shut down. Users today have to worry about the health of a parent company when choosing a product, with many people having been displayed by a "Google RSS Reader is shutting down" message. That problem disappears with decentralized infra. It may take some time for the rest of the world to catch on, but decentralization is just a better way to build apps.

carterehsmith 7y ago
>> Our platform uses dozens of hosts >> We're currently at 1/10th of Amazon. Curious, where is the "1/10th of Amazon" coming from?
- Taek 7y ago
  https://siastats.info/storage_pricing https://siastats.info/storage_pricing

arcticbull 7y ago

What sets us apart: Inefficiency and a higher cost basis than any cloud storage providers due to our devout adherence to blockchain.