4 ms·

Assuming the previous patent expired, can't someone else just make the medicine according to the original formula, and sell it for $30?

freehunter 7y ago
If there’s a profit, yes. But try explaining “sorry we have the ability to treat you but you’re going to die because the medicine isn’t profitable enough for a company to produce”.
- HarryHirsch 7y ago
  That's the other argument for nationalizing the pharmaceutical industry: broadening the supply chain. When Hurricane Maria destroyed Puerto Rico there was a shortage of saline in the US, because margin is so low that the market can only support very few manufacturers, many of which were on Puerto Rico. Right now we are looking at another rash of shortages. The Indian government has banned export of certain medications and pharmaceutical intermediates because India is worried about the coronavirus outbreak and domestic shortages.
- s1artibartfast 7y ago
  Someone still has to pay workers to make the drug at the end of the day. They don't work for free any more than doctors If workers aren't getting paid directly, they would be paid by tax dollars. The only questions are: 1) can nationalized companies make drugs cheaper? 2) If yes, are there second order effects, like reduced drug innovation.
  - freehunter 7y ago
    Many schools of economics teach that the proper place for the government to step in is when something serves the public good but has a low chance for profit. Public transportation, libraries, schools, roads, parks. These wouldn’t be profitable ventures for a commercial operator, but the public needs these things. So the government provides.
    - s1artibartfast 7y ago
      I wholeheartedly agree, but that doesn't mean that government employees build all the roads, schools, and parks. This is often done by for-profit companies and payed for with tax dollars
leetcrew 7y ago
I think the usual issue is that when a patent expires, a competing product still has to pass extensive (and expensive) safety tests before it can be sold. this is how you end up with pathological cases of price gouging on low volume generic drugs. this might be a good place for a government agency to step in and manufacture out of patent drugs and delivery devices at a reasonable price. it would at least be interesting to see the difference between the "reasonable price" and the actual cost to produce.
- dmoy 7y ago
  Another trick is to patent a new delivery method or some such nonsense. You can protect a single drug or treatment with a large variety of different patents to extend protection. Old drugs in fact comprise a vast majority of new patents. I've been talked at about this problem for ~hundreds of hours. It's really a depressing situation.
- basch 7y ago
  Doctors also have a duty to prescribe the best available drug, which is why you dont see people who cant afford modern insulin prescribed "last gen insulin."
  - gowld 7y ago
    Do you have a source for that? This doctor disagrees: https://www.statnews.com/2018/04/03/doctors-cost-prescribing-medications/ https://www.statnews.com/2018/04/03/doctors-cost-prescribing...
    - basch 7y ago
      PMID: 25785977 >What’s surprising is that the trailing edge of old insulin products did not generate a market for generic competition but rather became a set of obsolete products that were promptly removed from the U.S. market. Pork and beef insulins are not merely underutilized, they are unavailable for human use in the United States. Even when practitioners prescribe NPH and R insulin in place of insulin glargine and insulin aspart, these cheaper prescriptions are filled with newer recombinant products sold under brand names. And yet on the whole, it’s hard to say that contemporary patients who cannot afford their insulin (let alone the patent-protected glucometers and test strips required to adjust the dose) are well served by having as their only option an agent that is marginally more effective than those that could have been generically available 50 or 30 or 10 years ago, had generics manufacturers introduced cheaper versions when patents expired. I shouldnt blame the doctors, my comment was a little facetious. Some "low cost" versions did come out in 2019, but it feels more like the diamond industry selling both natural and lab made diamonds at different price points. Back to my original point, Doctors seem to agree that analog insulin is preferable to older formulas. - https://www.healthline.com/diabetesmine/why-not-more-affordable-generic-insulin https://www.healthline.com/diabetesmine/why-not-more-afforda... >Since we’re talking about cheaper insulin, Novo Nordisk’s Novolin ReliOn brand deserves a mention here. Sold for just $25 a vial without a prescription at Walmart, ReliOn includes “Regular” (short-acting), NPH (longer-acting), and 70/30 (biphasic insulin), a combination of the other two. These ReliOn products are not generics or biosimilars, but rather older “human” insulins — as opposed to the newer “analog” versions being produced today. Many patients and doctors agree that these older formulations clearly don’t provide the same level of blood glucose management as newer insulins. But if you’re forced to choose between using them and doing without or rationing insulin, these older insulins are certainly preferable. The risk is real. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/08/09/man-dies-otc-insulin/1942908001/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/08/09/man-di...

freehunter 7y ago

If there’s a profit, yes. But try explaining “sorry we have the ability to treat you but you’re going to die because the medicine isn’t profitable enough for a company to produce”.

HarryHirsch 7y ago
That's the other argument for nationalizing the pharmaceutical industry: broadening the supply chain. When Hurricane Maria destroyed Puerto Rico there was a shortage of saline in the US, because margin is so low that the market can only support very few manufacturers, many of which were on Puerto Rico. Right now we are looking at another rash of shortages. The Indian government has banned export of certain medications and pharmaceutical intermediates because India is worried about the coronavirus outbreak and domestic shortages.
s1artibartfast 7y ago
Someone still has to pay workers to make the drug at the end of the day. They don't work for free any more than doctors If workers aren't getting paid directly, they would be paid by tax dollars. The only questions are: 1) can nationalized companies make drugs cheaper? 2) If yes, are there second order effects, like reduced drug innovation.
- freehunter 7y ago
  Many schools of economics teach that the proper place for the government to step in is when something serves the public good but has a low chance for profit. Public transportation, libraries, schools, roads, parks. These wouldn’t be profitable ventures for a commercial operator, but the public needs these things. So the government provides.
  - s1artibartfast 7y ago
    I wholeheartedly agree, but that doesn't mean that government employees build all the roads, schools, and parks. This is often done by for-profit companies and payed for with tax dollars

leetcrew 7y ago

I think the usual issue is that when a patent expires, a competing product still has to pass extensive (and expensive) safety tests before it can be sold. this is how you end up with pathological cases of price gouging on low volume generic drugs. this might be a good place for a government agency to step in and manufacture out of patent drugs and delivery devices at a reasonable price. it would at least be interesting to see the difference between the "reasonable price" and the actual cost to produce.

dmoy 7y ago
Another trick is to patent a new delivery method or some such nonsense. You can protect a single drug or treatment with a large variety of different patents to extend protection. Old drugs in fact comprise a vast majority of new patents. I've been talked at about this problem for ~hundreds of hours. It's really a depressing situation.
basch 7y ago
Doctors also have a duty to prescribe the best available drug, which is why you dont see people who cant afford modern insulin prescribed "last gen insulin."
- gowld 7y ago
  Do you have a source for that? This doctor disagrees: https://www.statnews.com/2018/04/03/doctors-cost-prescribing-medications/ https://www.statnews.com/2018/04/03/doctors-cost-prescribing...
  - basch 7y ago
    PMID: 25785977 >What’s surprising is that the trailing edge of old insulin products did not generate a market for generic competition but rather became a set of obsolete products that were promptly removed from the U.S. market. Pork and beef insulins are not merely underutilized, they are unavailable for human use in the United States. Even when practitioners prescribe NPH and R insulin in place of insulin glargine and insulin aspart, these cheaper prescriptions are filled with newer recombinant products sold under brand names. And yet on the whole, it’s hard to say that contemporary patients who cannot afford their insulin (let alone the patent-protected glucometers and test strips required to adjust the dose) are well served by having as their only option an agent that is marginally more effective than those that could have been generically available 50 or 30 or 10 years ago, had generics manufacturers introduced cheaper versions when patents expired. I shouldnt blame the doctors, my comment was a little facetious. Some "low cost" versions did come out in 2019, but it feels more like the diamond industry selling both natural and lab made diamonds at different price points. Back to my original point, Doctors seem to agree that analog insulin is preferable to older formulas. - https://www.healthline.com/diabetesmine/why-not-more-affordable-generic-insulin https://www.healthline.com/diabetesmine/why-not-more-afforda... >Since we’re talking about cheaper insulin, Novo Nordisk’s Novolin ReliOn brand deserves a mention here. Sold for just $25 a vial without a prescription at Walmart, ReliOn includes “Regular” (short-acting), NPH (longer-acting), and 70/30 (biphasic insulin), a combination of the other two. These ReliOn products are not generics or biosimilars, but rather older “human” insulins — as opposed to the newer “analog” versions being produced today. Many patients and doctors agree that these older formulations clearly don’t provide the same level of blood glucose management as newer insulins. But if you’re forced to choose between using them and doing without or rationing insulin, these older insulins are certainly preferable. The risk is real. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/08/09/man-dies-otc-insulin/1942908001/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/08/09/man-di...