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They load Google Tag Manager, Google Retargeting Pixel, Segment, Facebook Connect, and SmartLook (which looks like some kind of analytics package). This should

They load Google Tag Manager, Google Retargeting Pixel, Segment, Facebook Connect, and SmartLook (which looks like some kind of analytics package). This should not be controversial as this would be found on pretty much any website that runs advertising and does user analytics, it's not really something to get all worked up over. Also, I would probably recommend that small startups not put much effort into complying with EU regulations because: 1. EU regulators have limited time and are very unlikely to go after small startups. 2. As a result, the benefits of (costly) compliance aren't worth the costs.

TeMPOraL 7y ago
> This should not be controversial as this would be found on pretty much any website that runs advertising and does user analytics, it's not really something to get all worked up over. The fact that this is found on so many websites is a controversial thing already. FWIW, all I'm doing here is providing a (however small) market signal. They're free to ignore it; no hard feelings. I am in the target market - a parent of a small child, interested in using the service and with enough spare income to afford it. But I don't like the aspects I mentioned.
- jamiequint 7y ago
  > The fact that this is found on so many websites is a controversial thing already. It's controversial to you, it's not controversial to the vast majority of people. Given that, the downsides of e.g. not being able to retarget advertising, not being able to understand effectively how users are using the website (with minimal effort), etc aren't worth the costs. Say they were to just have those trackers pre-login and post-login there is nothing, they probably lose more business trying to emphasize this arcane fact that only extreme privacy-nerds care about on their homepage versus simply just ignoring them.
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    > Given that, the downsides of e.g. not being able to retarget advertising, not being able to understand effectively how users are using the website (with minimal effort), etc aren't worth the costs. Downsides to the company. All upsides to me (you can understand effectively how users are using the website without doing extensive telemetry; in fact, this reduces your chances of A/B-testing yourself into full-blown user-hostility, as is common these days; see also: overfitting, Goodhart's law). Not to mention: if you need detailed analytics, there are couple of self-hosted solutions available. Not at all that more complex to use, and at least they don't leak visitors' data to various shady third parties. Note that this particular product targets parents of small children and is bordering on "medical information" territory, so an analytics script from some random third party[0] which can track what FAQ options piqued your interests is especially worrisome in this context. -- [0] - I noticed from your profile that you have experience in the marketing industry, and you seem to not recognize Smartlook.
    - jamiequint 7y ago
      > at least they don't leak visitors' data to various shady third parties One would have to be extremely paranoid to think that most mainstream third-party data analytics providers are "shady", most of these providers (Segment, Amplitude, etc) all have clauses in the contracts that specify the end-user (the company in this case) as the owner of the data, and limit their usage of data to providing the services (meaning they're contractually obligated to NOT sell or do anything with the data). In any case, it's a meaningless distinction, as the company could easily record all this data with native, first-party JS and proxy it to anyone they want on the backend and you would have no idea and no control over such a thing. This is already starting to happen, making all of the fuss about third-party metrics effectively just "privacy theater". At the end of the day your behavioral data is going to the party whose software you're using, and if you don't trust them there is nothing that is going to stop them from doing whatever they want with that information.
carterehsmith 7y ago
>> They load Google Tag Manager, Google Retargeting Pixel, Segment, Facebook Connect, and SmartLook (which looks like some kind of analytics package). >> This should not be controversial This is tricky, as handling a person asking for a medical advice is a rather special thing, compared to a person asking to buy a vacuum cleaner. The thing is, all of your medical info will go to all of the above trackers, and surely they will sell it to whoever wants to pay for that. Insurance companies included.
- trustle 7y ago
  Catalin (CTO) here. I very much understand the privacy concern. To clarify, none of the communication with your coach happens via the Trustle website. The part that is full of the standard instrumentation and analytics, as you point out, is our onboarding flow. The info you enter here is - who you are, - when you can talk, - and what parenting challenges you face at the broadest level. Those are the questions required to match you with your coach. The data in those initial three questions flows into Segment and from there into our analytics tools (Amplitude, Google Analytics, conversion tracking for ads, etc.). And while it's all encrypted, etc., you're right to say that it goes to a lot of places internally. We will not ever sell that info, but analyzing it using modern tools internally helps us understand what our users want and how we can do better. What comes afterwards is end-to-end encrypted conversation with your coach. Oh, and Trustle is not a health service provider. However, we strive to treat your data with the same level of rigor that a medical service provider would apply; as opposed to the person selling you a vacuum...
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    > and what parenting challenges you face at the broadest level > The data in those initial three questions flows into Segment and from there into our analytics tools This is the worrying part. The fact that you're a parent and the particular broad challenges you face are already somewhat sensitive and useful for advertisers. It's fine if this info stays with you internally. It's not fine if your service providers start using it for their own cross-site marketing purposes. Between individuals, trust works transitively - you trust them, I trust you, therefore I somewhat trust them too, within the scope of our relationship. Between individuals and companies, in the realities of Internet and modern advertising, it unfortunately does not work that way. (I don't really expect you do anything about third-party analytics on the frongpage; I just want to voice the concerns.) > we strive to treat your data with the same level of rigor that a medical service provider would apply Aim higher. I have a doctor in my family, and you wouldn't believe some of the privacy horror stories I hear happen in hospitals.

TeMPOraL 7y ago

> This should not be controversial as this would be found on pretty much any website that runs advertising and does user analytics, it's not really something to get all worked up over. The fact that this is found on so many websites is a controversial thing already. FWIW, all I'm doing here is providing a (however small) market signal. They're free to ignore it; no hard feelings. I am in the target market - a parent of a small child, interested in using the service and with enough spare income to afford it. But I don't like the aspects I mentioned.

jamiequint 7y ago
> The fact that this is found on so many websites is a controversial thing already. It's controversial to you, it's not controversial to the vast majority of people. Given that, the downsides of e.g. not being able to retarget advertising, not being able to understand effectively how users are using the website (with minimal effort), etc aren't worth the costs. Say they were to just have those trackers pre-login and post-login there is nothing, they probably lose more business trying to emphasize this arcane fact that only extreme privacy-nerds care about on their homepage versus simply just ignoring them.
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  > Given that, the downsides of e.g. not being able to retarget advertising, not being able to understand effectively how users are using the website (with minimal effort), etc aren't worth the costs. Downsides to the company. All upsides to me (you can understand effectively how users are using the website without doing extensive telemetry; in fact, this reduces your chances of A/B-testing yourself into full-blown user-hostility, as is common these days; see also: overfitting, Goodhart's law). Not to mention: if you need detailed analytics, there are couple of self-hosted solutions available. Not at all that more complex to use, and at least they don't leak visitors' data to various shady third parties. Note that this particular product targets parents of small children and is bordering on "medical information" territory, so an analytics script from some random third party[0] which can track what FAQ options piqued your interests is especially worrisome in this context. -- [0] - I noticed from your profile that you have experience in the marketing industry, and you seem to not recognize Smartlook.
  - jamiequint 7y ago
    > at least they don't leak visitors' data to various shady third parties One would have to be extremely paranoid to think that most mainstream third-party data analytics providers are "shady", most of these providers (Segment, Amplitude, etc) all have clauses in the contracts that specify the end-user (the company in this case) as the owner of the data, and limit their usage of data to providing the services (meaning they're contractually obligated to NOT sell or do anything with the data). In any case, it's a meaningless distinction, as the company could easily record all this data with native, first-party JS and proxy it to anyone they want on the backend and you would have no idea and no control over such a thing. This is already starting to happen, making all of the fuss about third-party metrics effectively just "privacy theater". At the end of the day your behavioral data is going to the party whose software you're using, and if you don't trust them there is nothing that is going to stop them from doing whatever they want with that information.

carterehsmith 7y ago

>> They load Google Tag Manager, Google Retargeting Pixel, Segment, Facebook Connect, and SmartLook (which looks like some kind of analytics package). >> This should not be controversial This is tricky, as handling a person asking for a medical advice is a rather special thing, compared to a person asking to buy a vacuum cleaner. The thing is, all of your medical info will go to all of the above trackers, and surely they will sell it to whoever wants to pay for that. Insurance companies included.

trustle 7y ago
Catalin (CTO) here. I very much understand the privacy concern. To clarify, none of the communication with your coach happens via the Trustle website. The part that is full of the standard instrumentation and analytics, as you point out, is our onboarding flow. The info you enter here is - who you are, - when you can talk, - and what parenting challenges you face at the broadest level. Those are the questions required to match you with your coach. The data in those initial three questions flows into Segment and from there into our analytics tools (Amplitude, Google Analytics, conversion tracking for ads, etc.). And while it's all encrypted, etc., you're right to say that it goes to a lot of places internally. We will not ever sell that info, but analyzing it using modern tools internally helps us understand what our users want and how we can do better. What comes afterwards is end-to-end encrypted conversation with your coach. Oh, and Trustle is not a health service provider. However, we strive to treat your data with the same level of rigor that a medical service provider would apply; as opposed to the person selling you a vacuum...
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  > and what parenting challenges you face at the broadest level > The data in those initial three questions flows into Segment and from there into our analytics tools This is the worrying part. The fact that you're a parent and the particular broad challenges you face are already somewhat sensitive and useful for advertisers. It's fine if this info stays with you internally. It's not fine if your service providers start using it for their own cross-site marketing purposes. Between individuals, trust works transitively - you trust them, I trust you, therefore I somewhat trust them too, within the scope of our relationship. Between individuals and companies, in the realities of Internet and modern advertising, it unfortunately does not work that way. (I don't really expect you do anything about third-party analytics on the frongpage; I just want to voice the concerns.) > we strive to treat your data with the same level of rigor that a medical service provider would apply Aim higher. I have a doctor in my family, and you wouldn't believe some of the privacy horror stories I hear happen in hospitals.