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I always found the dichotomy of Soviet culture interesting - that engineers were the most pragmatic I've ever seen, and the politicians were just...fucking idio

I always found the dichotomy of Soviet culture interesting - that engineers were the most pragmatic I've ever seen, and the politicians were just...fucking idiots. The best example being Korolev, possibly the greatest rocket designer in history (certainly up there with Von Braun and Xuesen, and in my opinion more impressive), who died because he was sent to the Gulags by a bitter politician (this is an incredibly short edit of the full story, but that is a factual statement). Korolev built working rockets the US said were theoretically impossible, and he did it because he couldn't afford to build the rockets the way the US were doing it. So he got resourceful. Had he not died in 1966, I suspect the Soviets would have beat the US to putting a man on the moon.

TuringNYC 7y ago
>> I always found the dichotomy of Soviet culture interesting - that engineers were the most pragmatic I've ever seen, and the politicians were just...fucking idiots. I'm not familiar with that history, but I'm quite familiar with Corporate America. One thing I've seen is that when Engineering is great, it gives the company great momentum and allows the Management/"Business"/Strategy/etc functions to lag and get lazy. Good Engineering momentum essentially produces enough residual value for others to leech off from.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- mrkstu 7y ago
  Which may be an insight on how SpaceX/Tesla avoid some of those traditional business issues- the business is this case is a means to an engineering end, not a means to perpetuate the power/wealth/comfort of management.
- koheripbal 7y ago
  This is a vague statement that is just as often untrue as it is true. It's more of a stereotype to hate on "management" and is lazy thinking.
pasabagi 7y ago
Stalin spent the latter half of his career killing all the talented politicians, whereas the engineers got left alone. Then the not-so-talented politicians that got left over (some of whom were not so bad) had to fight against a culture of fear, compulsive ass-covering, and magical thinking.
ilyich 7y ago
The only fucking idiot among top Soviet politicians was Gorbachev who sold one of the world's biggest economic, scientific and military powers just for 30 pieces of silver. His predecessors were no idiots at all. They are depicted as complete morons by the western propaganda - it's true. But propaganda and reality are two completely different things. I would advise you to learn history instead of blindly believing the yellow press and political articles on Wikipedia.
- BigBubbleButt 7y ago
  So the politician who sent the world's greatest rocket engineer to the gulags out of spite isn't an idiot? I'd be happy to learn more if you can point me towards some sources.
  - cbHXBY1D 7y ago
    I read Stephen Kotkin's excellent three part series on Stalin this summer and Kotkin (who is by no means a Soviet apologist; he's a conservative) thinks Stalin was a political genius, a modern Machiavelli. For example, in this interview [1] he explains how Stalin's administration was what he considers a "transcendental work of art" while also explaining how it was psychotic and evil. I highly recommend Kotkin's books. You can jump into the second, Stalin: Waiting for Hitler, 1929-1941 if you want to learn more about him as a leader. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz1ROc0pTU4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz1ROc0pTU4
    - BigBubbleButt 7y ago
      Thank you! I appreciate it.
  - ilyich 7y ago
    First, by the time of his imprisonment he was not yet the world's greatest rocket engineer. He became one some 20 years after. Quote from here: https://www.esa.int/About_Us/ESA_history/50_years_of_humans_in_space/Sergei_Korolev_Father_of_the_Soviet_Union_s_success_in_space https://www.esa.int/About_Us/ESA_history/50_years_of_humans_... > On 23 March 1938, Valentin Glushko was arrested. To reduce his charges he denounced Korolev, which resulted in his arrest on 7 June and a sentence of ten years forced labour. From that day on, the two men were bitterly opposed to each other. So as you can see he was not sent to gulag out of spite by Stalin but out of envy and professional competition by his fellow rocket engineer. While in gulag he was not tortured or sent to gold mines. He and other scientists continued their work in relatively comfortable conditions in so called "sharashka": https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharashka https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharashka I'm not saying that Stalin was a saint or a winged seraph. But definitely he was anyone but an idiot. Also Korolev did not died because he was sent to the Gulags. He died from a chronic disease from which he started suffering long before he was imprisoned.
nickik 7y ago
> that engineers were the most pragmatic I've ever seen, and the politicians were just...fucking idiots. The engineers would have big problems if they spaceship doesn't work. The politicians are not idiots, its simply that they don't have the same goals as the engineers so the politicians seem like idiots to engineers. > Had he not died in 1966, I suspect the Soviets would have beat the US to putting a man on the moon. This is an false take. Many people have looked at this and it simply doesn't hold up. The resources they were investing was not big enough and having korolev couldn't have solved all the many problems they would have still faced. They had some great engine technology but its a long way from there to the moon.

TuringNYC 7y ago

>> I always found the dichotomy of Soviet culture interesting - that engineers were the most pragmatic I've ever seen, and the politicians were just...fucking idiots. I'm not familiar with that history, but I'm quite familiar with Corporate America. One thing I've seen is that when Engineering is great, it gives the company great momentum and allows the Management/"Business"/Strategy/etc functions to lag and get lazy. Good Engineering momentum essentially produces enough residual value for others to leech off from.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
mrkstu 7y ago
Which may be an insight on how SpaceX/Tesla avoid some of those traditional business issues- the business is this case is a means to an engineering end, not a means to perpetuate the power/wealth/comfort of management.
koheripbal 7y ago
This is a vague statement that is just as often untrue as it is true. It's more of a stereotype to hate on "management" and is lazy thinking.

pasabagi 7y ago

Stalin spent the latter half of his career killing all the talented politicians, whereas the engineers got left alone. Then the not-so-talented politicians that got left over (some of whom were not so bad) had to fight against a culture of fear, compulsive ass-covering, and magical thinking.

ilyich 7y ago

The only fucking idiot among top Soviet politicians was Gorbachev who sold one of the world's biggest economic, scientific and military powers just for 30 pieces of silver. His predecessors were no idiots at all. They are depicted as complete morons by the western propaganda - it's true. But propaganda and reality are two completely different things. I would advise you to learn history instead of blindly believing the yellow press and political articles on Wikipedia.

BigBubbleButt 7y ago
So the politician who sent the world's greatest rocket engineer to the gulags out of spite isn't an idiot? I'd be happy to learn more if you can point me towards some sources.
- cbHXBY1D 7y ago
  I read Stephen Kotkin's excellent three part series on Stalin this summer and Kotkin (who is by no means a Soviet apologist; he's a conservative) thinks Stalin was a political genius, a modern Machiavelli. For example, in this interview [1] he explains how Stalin's administration was what he considers a "transcendental work of art" while also explaining how it was psychotic and evil. I highly recommend Kotkin's books. You can jump into the second, Stalin: Waiting for Hitler, 1929-1941 if you want to learn more about him as a leader. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz1ROc0pTU4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz1ROc0pTU4
  - BigBubbleButt 7y ago
    Thank you! I appreciate it.
- ilyich 7y ago
  First, by the time of his imprisonment he was not yet the world's greatest rocket engineer. He became one some 20 years after. Quote from here: https://www.esa.int/About_Us/ESA_history/50_years_of_humans_in_space/Sergei_Korolev_Father_of_the_Soviet_Union_s_success_in_space https://www.esa.int/About_Us/ESA_history/50_years_of_humans_... > On 23 March 1938, Valentin Glushko was arrested. To reduce his charges he denounced Korolev, which resulted in his arrest on 7 June and a sentence of ten years forced labour. From that day on, the two men were bitterly opposed to each other. So as you can see he was not sent to gulag out of spite by Stalin but out of envy and professional competition by his fellow rocket engineer. While in gulag he was not tortured or sent to gold mines. He and other scientists continued their work in relatively comfortable conditions in so called "sharashka": https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharashka https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharashka I'm not saying that Stalin was a saint or a winged seraph. But definitely he was anyone but an idiot. Also Korolev did not died because he was sent to the Gulags. He died from a chronic disease from which he started suffering long before he was imprisoned.

nickik 7y ago

> that engineers were the most pragmatic I've ever seen, and the politicians were just...fucking idiots. The engineers would have big problems if they spaceship doesn't work. The politicians are not idiots, its simply that they don't have the same goals as the engineers so the politicians seem like idiots to engineers. > Had he not died in 1966, I suspect the Soviets would have beat the US to putting a man on the moon. This is an false take. Many people have looked at this and it simply doesn't hold up. The resources they were investing was not big enough and having korolev couldn't have solved all the many problems they would have still faced. They had some great engine technology but its a long way from there to the moon.